Go Back  FlyerTalk Forums > Travel&Dining > Travel News
Reload this Page >

FBI Probes Laser Beam Directed at Cockpit at 8500'

FBI Probes Laser Beam Directed at Cockpit at 8500'

Old Dec 29, 2004, 5:37 pm
  #1  
Original Poster
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: SEA/YVR/BLI
Programs: UA "Lifetime" Gold, AS MVPG100K, OW Emerald, HH Lifetime Diamond, IC Plat, Marriott Gold, Hertz Gold
Posts: 9,483
FBI Probes Laser Beam Directed at Cockpit at 8500'

http://makeashorterlink.com/?M24C12F1A

FBI Probes Laser Beam Directed at Cockpit

CLEVELAND - Authorities are investigating a mysterious laser beam that was directed into the cockpit of a commercial jet traveling at more than 8,500 feet.

The beam appeared Monday when the plane was about 15 miles from Cleveland Hopkins International Airport, the FBI (news - web sites) said.

"It was in there for several seconds like (the plane) was being tracked," FBI agent Robert Hawk said.
Fredd is offline  
Old Dec 29, 2004, 5:48 pm
  #2  
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: BOS and vicinity
Programs: Former UA 1P
Posts: 3,723
Apparently several incidents:

http://www.cnn.com/2004/US/12/29/laser.plane/index.html

Not a very reliable way to attack aircraft but maybe a way to agitate a few easily-scared sheeple with media hype.
studentff is offline  
Old Dec 29, 2004, 5:56 pm
  #3  
Original Poster
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: SEA/YVR/BLI
Programs: UA "Lifetime" Gold, AS MVPG100K, OW Emerald, HH Lifetime Diamond, IC Plat, Marriott Gold, Hertz Gold
Posts: 9,483
Originally Posted by studentff
Apparently several incidents:

http://www.cnn.com/2004/US/12/29/laser.plane/index.html

Not a very reliable way to attack aircraft but maybe a way to agitate a few easily-scared sheeple with media hype.
There have been other recent alleged incidents. In one of the Tom Clancy novels (Debt of Honor?) Mr. Clark uses some kind of laser to blind a pilot and cause a plane to crash as it was landing. Was that the novel in which a pilot also deliberately crashed a plane into the Capitol Building?

If it happened at 8500 feet I presume it's a little more than a kid with a laser pointer, but I hope you're right that it would be an ineffective way to attack aircraft.
Fredd is offline  
Old Dec 29, 2004, 6:07 pm
  #4  
 
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: Los Angeles
Programs: UA 1K, AA 2MM, Bonvoy LT Plt, Mets fan
Posts: 5,073
Originally Posted by Fredd
There have been other recent alleged incidents. In one of the Tom Clancy novels (Debt of Honor?) Mr. Clark uses some kind of laser to blind a pilot and cause a plane to crash as it was landing. Was that the novel in which a pilot also deliberately crashed a plane into the Capitol Building?
Fredd - that was exactly what I was going to say. Clancy wrote the scene with John Clark & Domingo Chavez using lasers to blind Japanese AWACS pilots on landing, in Debt of Honor, as a prelude to the US Special Forces attack. A few hundred pages later, he has the JAL 747 crashing into the Capitol.

But, of course, that's fiction.
CO FF is offline  
Old Dec 29, 2004, 6:11 pm
  #5  
Original Poster
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: SEA/YVR/BLI
Programs: UA "Lifetime" Gold, AS MVPG100K, OW Emerald, HH Lifetime Diamond, IC Plat, Marriott Gold, Hertz Gold
Posts: 9,483
Originally Posted by CO FF
Fredd - that was exactly what I was going to say. Clancy wrote the scene with John Clark & Domingo Chavez using lasers to blind Japanese AWACS pilots on landing, in Debt of Honor, as a prelude to the US Special Forces attack. A few hundred pages later, he has the JAL 747 crashing into the Capitol.

But, of course, that's fiction.
Yes indeed. One of my favorite of Oscar Wilde's aphorisms is "Life is an imitation of art." Let's hope Clancy's fiction isn't prophetic in regard to laser attacks at least.
Fredd is offline  
Old Dec 30, 2004, 4:56 am
  #6  
FlyerTalk Evangelist
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: An NPR mind living in a Fox News world
Posts: 14,153
One would need a pretty smooth and accurate gimbal in order to keep the beam consistently pointed at the cockpit. Also, the a/c would have to be banked sufficiently in order to get as shot in the window.

I've "played" with lasers and agree that it's not an effective weapon when used as the article alleges. For the cost and effort involved, one could buy several MANPADS.

Having said that, I wonder if anyone has looked into if any shopping malls, movie theaters, or night clubs had searchlights or lasers set up to promote something?
FliesWay2Much is offline  
Old Dec 30, 2004, 6:37 am
  #7  
Original Poster
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: SEA/YVR/BLI
Programs: UA "Lifetime" Gold, AS MVPG100K, OW Emerald, HH Lifetime Diamond, IC Plat, Marriott Gold, Hertz Gold
Posts: 9,483
Originally Posted by FliesWay2Much
One would need a pretty smooth and accurate gimbal in order to keep the beam consistently pointed at the cockpit. Also, the a/c would have to be banked sufficiently in order to get as shot in the window.

I've "played" with lasers and agree that it's not an effective weapon when used as the article alleges. For the cost and effort involved, one could buy several MANPADS.

Having said that, I wonder if anyone has looked into if any shopping malls, movie theaters, or night clubs had searchlights or lasers set up to promote something?
I hope it's something like that. Here's another "just in" report by two separate pilots landing in Colorado:

http://www.kktv.com/home/headlines/1309846.html

Federal officials are investigating reports from two pilots who say bright lights were aimed from the ground into their cockpits as they headed into the Colorado Springs Airport.

Both planes landed without problems on Monday night.

Federal officials issued a warning this month that terrorists might try to down aircraft by shining powerful lasers into cockpits to blind pilots during landing approaches.
Fredd is offline  
Old Dec 30, 2004, 3:09 pm
  #8  
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: SQL
Programs: SPG Platinum; Hyatt Platinum; UA 1K
Posts: 3,170
Reading articles on the net I have read comments suggesting that the tracking of the plane with the laser would have required sophisticated equipment.

Thinking about it, I realize that this is unlikely to be true.

Consider the following: The laser illuminated the cockpit presumably through the front windows. This means that the laser was located almost directly in front of the plane. At 8500' soon before landing it is a no-brainer that the plane was descending. So the plane was virtually heading straight for the laser. Even though its airspeed was several hundred of knots, its motion relative to the laser (i.e. its angular velocity measured from the laser) would have been very close to zero.

So assuming that the laser was mounted in a way to prevent vibration and had some sort of simple mechanical controls for fine tuning the direction it would not be difficult to keep it aligned with the plane. Especially if the mount also had optics to see where the beam was hitting.

I believe that lasers used in construction have all of these requirements (along with sufficient power).

The only hard part is finding a plane heading straight for the laser (which might not be that hard for certain locations on commonly used approaches), and getting it initially lined up.

As for the issue of getting it lined up in the first time: We don't know how many times the operator had attempted this without success.
VPescado is offline  
Old Jan 1, 2005, 9:57 am
  #9  
FlyerTalk Evangelist
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Posts: 15,788
I think it is important to note that these are GREEN lasers being reported.

Unlike the typical red laser pointers, a green pointer will create a visible beam in the air (assuming it is night). Since you can see the beam it is really easy to aim. Amateur astronomers use them to point out objects of interest in the night sky.

While I think the TSA, FBA, etc. need to evaluate the threat that lasers might evntually pose, I'd bet a significant amount that these recent sightings are caused by idiots with new christmas toys.
birdstrike is offline  
Old Jan 1, 2005, 11:33 am
  #10  
FlyerTalk Evangelist
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Seattle, WA, USA
Programs: Bar Alliance Gold
Posts: 16,271
Originally Posted by CO FF
Clancy wrote the scene with John Clark & Domingo Chavez using lasers to blind Japanese AWACS pilots on landing, in Debt of Honor, as a prelude to the US Special Forces attack. A few hundred pages later, he has the JAL 747 crashing into the Capitol.
Clark and Chavez actually used a three-million candlepower xenon arc light (just checked the passage in the book).

And "Storming Heaven" by Dale Brown is a better analogy to what happened on 9.11, as it details multiple terrorists attacks using commercial airliners.
SEA_Tigger is offline  
Old Jan 1, 2005, 3:44 pm
  #11  
Original Poster
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: SEA/YVR/BLI
Programs: UA "Lifetime" Gold, AS MVPG100K, OW Emerald, HH Lifetime Diamond, IC Plat, Marriott Gold, Hertz Gold
Posts: 9,483
Originally Posted by SEA_Tigger
Clark and Chavez actually used a three-million candlepower xenon arc light (just checked the passage in the book).

And "Storming Heaven" by Dale Brown is a better analogy to what happened on 9.11, as it details multiple terrorists attacks using commercial airliners.
Thanks SEA_Tigger - lucky that wasn't on my Tom Clancy final exam.

Here's another article about an incident with a police helicopter:

http://apnews.myway.com/article/20050101/D87B2G180.html

Person Questioned About Laser Beam, Planes


Dec 31, 11:33 PM (ET)

By BRUCE SHIPKOWSKI

TRENTON, N.J. (AP) - A laser beam was aimed at a police helicopter Friday - one of several incidents involving aircraft across the country in the past week - and federal authorities were questioning someone who had been at a house where they said the light had originated.

Officials said no one was hurt when the laser hit the Port Authority of New York and New Jersey police helicopter as it flew over an area where a similar incident occurred Wednesday.

Soon after, Port Authority officials and the FBI went to a Parsippany home where they had tracked the laser beam and were questioning a person there in connection with both incidents, said Steve Coleman, an authority spokesman.


Here's a more recent account from CNN on the above:

http://makeashorterlink.com/?F2ED1232A

Last edited by Fredd; Jan 1, 2005 at 3:56 pm Reason: to add CNN piece
Fredd is offline  
Old Jan 5, 2005, 1:36 am
  #12  
Original Poster
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: SEA/YVR/BLI
Programs: UA "Lifetime" Gold, AS MVPG100K, OW Emerald, HH Lifetime Diamond, IC Plat, Marriott Gold, Hertz Gold
Posts: 9,483
http://apnews.myway.com/article/20050105/D87DMD880.html

Man Charged Under Patriot Act for Laser

Jan 4, 11:01 PM (ET)

By WAYNE PARRY

NEWARK, N.J. (AP) - Federal authorities Tuesday used the Patriot Act to charge a man with pointing a laser beam at an airplane overhead and temporarily blinding the pilot and co-pilot.

The FBI acknowledged the incident had no connection to terrorism but called David Banach's actions "foolhardy and negligent."

Banach, 38, of Parsippany admitted to federal agents that he pointed the light beam at a jet and a helicopter over his home near Teterboro Airport last week, authorities said. Initially, he claimed his daughter aimed the device at the helicopter, they said.

He is the first person arrested after a recent rash of reports around the nation of laser beams hitting airplanes.
Fredd is offline  
Old Jan 5, 2005, 9:01 am
  #13  
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: CT USA
Posts: 2,577
Originally Posted by Fredd
http://apnews.myway.com/article/20050105/D87DMD880.html

Man Charged Under Patriot Act for Laser
Then, on Friday, a helicopter carrying Port Authority detectives was hit by a laser beam as its crew surveyed the area to try to pinpoint the origin of the original beam.
What a dope!


Initially, he claimed his daughter aimed the device at the helicopter, they said.
He was accused of interfering with the operator of a mass transportation vehicle and making false statements to the FBI, and was released on $100,000 bail. He could get up to 25 years in prison and fines of up to $500,000.
Is this what he wanted for his daughter?


"Not only was the safety of the pilot and passengers placed in jeopardy by Banach's actions, so were countless innocent civilians on the ground in this densely populated area," said Joseph Billy, agent in charge of the FBI's Newark bureau.
IMO, they should throw the book at him.
JumboJet is offline  
Old Jan 5, 2005, 11:39 am
  #14  
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: SQL
Programs: SPG Platinum; Hyatt Platinum; UA 1K
Posts: 3,170
Yeah he is a doofus, but I think the crime does not really fit the punishment. Prison time isn't going to really help. Do you think he is likely to do this stupid trick again?

IMHO he should get a punishment on the order of what he'd get for a DUI. Maybe 10K in fines, plus perhaps some probation/community service.

I think a 10K fine is a plenty big deterrent for the random idiot, and half a million is not enough of a deterrent to stop a real terrorist.
VPescado is offline  
Old Jan 5, 2005, 11:49 am
  #15  
Suspended
 
Join Date: Jun 1999
Location: Los Angeles
Programs: Loyal to Myself
Posts: 8,303
Originally Posted by VPescado
Yeah he is a doofus, but I think the crime does not really fit the punishment. Prison time isn't going to really help. Do you think he is likely to do this stupid trick again?

IMHO he should get a punishment on the order of what he'd get for a DUI. Maybe 10K in fines, plus perhaps some probation/community service.

I think a 10K fine is a plenty big deterrent for the random idiot, and half a million is not enough of a deterrent to stop a real terrorist.
This will get pleaded down to some minor charge and settled, but that won't make the headlines, which is fine by me.

And in the meantime, every idiot with a laser will see the the "25 year jailtime" headline on this and put it back in his pocket.
Brian is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Manage Preferences - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service -

This site is owned, operated, and maintained by MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Designated trademarks are the property of their respective owners.