How can we be helpful to newbies?

 
Old Aug 5, 2006, 4:47 pm
  #31  
 
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As others have proposed (see this thread), I think it is a good idea to require a new registrant to take a brief search engine tutorial before being allowed to create his first thread. They would see how to frame search queries for some real world questions.

At the end of the tutorial there would be a reminder that a good FTer always searches for an existing answer before creating a new thread.

However, as already noted, there are always going to be some folks who don't much care about others, aren't willing to learn the rules, and think that their needs outweigh all other considertions. For them, the acerbic wit of many folks on this forum is a strong incentive to either get with it or get out.

These responses also often provide us all a great deal of entertainment.
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Old Aug 5, 2006, 5:18 pm
  #32  
 
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Maybe the real regulars need their own board

I have been on this board for years and until I decided to manufacture about 50 posts just to see what was in OMNI, I have been posting as rarely as I could and reading extensively every day. What puzzles me is that some members seem to equate post count with wisdom. Now maybe some have the ablity to devote their lives to posting pithy informative responses or incisive questions, but if the post count is in the thousands, that is one post a day for a number of years. Who has that much to say? Really!
In my years on FT I have had only one seriously informative post, when I was the first to post on the United board a few years ago that they were giving away 1K based on revenue. I will confess that many of the rest have been less than useful.
I think the real issue is that some see this is a club of buddies or a community, and others see this place as just a way to get basic information. It is hard for a free public board to fulfil the community function. I am on several boards on a favorite topic that have a membership committee and a nominating process. Maybe some of the most interested AA FT'ers should just explore going off on their own. They would be happier in the long run I bet.
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Old Aug 5, 2006, 6:26 pm
  #33  
 
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Originally Posted by ORDflyer
What puzzles me is that some members seem to equate post count with wisdom. Now maybe some have the ablity to devote their lives to posting pithy informative responses or incisive questions, but if the post count is in the thousands, that is one post a day for a number of years. Who has that much to say? Really!
Yeah, we should probably ignore those with 1k+ posts. Not like they're doing it to be helpful or anything.
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Old Aug 5, 2006, 7:18 pm
  #34  
 
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One of the reasons I have chosen to be BA my choice is because I had nice information in the board which answered most of my question around BA which I could have.

Searching also got a lot easier once I found the setting in the profile which by default restricted (!) the number of results of a search.

Does the AA forum need a decent faq? Yes of course. Newbies, especially older newbies, tend to read instructions if they are presented.

Imagine being a newbie and wanting to learn anything about this airline.
Imagine he starts with BA. In the forum he is presented three stickies.

* List of all known issues with ba.com
* The ultimate UPGRADE thread
* The all new and updated Ultimate BRITISH AIRWAYS Guide

so where does a newbie go? Right, the BA Guide. And in it he finds after some general explanation

http://flyertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=582881
Change Log
Say what!? (AKA Common Acronyms)
The ULTIMATE ex-EU Travel Guide
Travel Classes
Fleet Overview and Seat Map Links (AKA Whats the best seat)
Lounges and Lounge Access
ceBA BAs Web Services
Joining the Executive Club
Tiers and Tier Points
Membership Countries
Household Accounts
Earning Miles
Spending Miles
oneworld / Franchises / Airline Partners
American Express
Earning BA Miles at Tesco and other Partners
Fare Buckets/Letters
Some Suggestions for Travelling with Children
What London Airport, and What Terminal is my BA Flight?
Especially the thread with the acroyms is quite helpful ...


Now let's take a look at the aa forum:
* STATUS FOR SALE-- *including EXP*
* Unofficial Guide to AAdvantage: elite status, gold and plat challenge, and more
* AA award travel stopover/transit rules *REVISED w/ ROUTING rules*

qed.
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Old Aug 5, 2006, 7:40 pm
  #35  
 
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Originally Posted by jumpdogjump
Yeah, we should probably ignore those with 1k+ posts. Not like they're doing it to be helpful or anything.
Well, sometimes they are very helpful, about 5%. Other times their posts are just chaff. Let's have this conversation in five or six years.
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Old Aug 5, 2006, 7:51 pm
  #36  
 
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Originally Posted by nixande
Now let's take a look at the aa forum:
* STATUS FOR SALE-- *including EXP*
* Unofficial Guide to AAdvantage: elite status, gold and plat challenge, and more
* AA award travel stopover/transit rules *REVISED w/ ROUTING rules*

qed.
What's wrong with the second sticky? There are two links there - one each to fewmiles' old and new AA websites. ^

In fact, fewmiles' sites have pretty much anything anyone would need ever to know about AA. :-: :-: :-:

But, yes, you gotta click. On that second sticky. And on the link in that second sticky. And then read. For about 5 minutes, till you get your answer. Two clicks and 5 minutes -- too much to ask, perhaps?

The 1st and the 3rd are admittedly not targeted to new members. So what?
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Old Aug 5, 2006, 8:06 pm
  #37  
 
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Originally Posted by ORDflyer
Well, sometimes they are very helpful, about 5%. Other times their posts are just chaff. Let's have this conversation in five or six years.
I am sorry, I respectfully disagree here. I've never felt this anti-newbie ire, even when I started.

Let us look at my very first post on FT (was on AA), 3 years back -- link here. See who replied ? It is the now persona non grata He-who-shall-not-be-named-or-else-thread-will-be-deleted.

Let us take my 2nd thread -- this time on the MR forum. Again, notice the replies. Also notice how helpful they were to every serious question I asked. :-:

You get out of FT (and also life but that's a different discussion ), as much as you put into it. Ask a stupid question, and get a nasty reply. Show that you respect others' time/efforts, and get some back in return.
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Old Aug 5, 2006, 8:07 pm
  #38  
 
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Originally Posted by ORDflyer
Well, sometimes they are very helpful, about 5%. Other times their posts are just chaff. Let's have this conversation in five or six years.
I've read your posts and I agree with you 100%. What's intriguing to me are people who have millions of miles and a high post count. When do they fly??? When do they do their work and/or socialize with their loved ones??

Cheers,

J
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Old Aug 5, 2006, 8:18 pm
  #39  
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Originally Posted by wannabe_plat
I am sorry, I respectfully disagree here. I've never felt this anti-newbie ire, even when I started.

Let us look at my very first post on FT (was on AA), 3 years back -- link here. See who replied ? It is the now persona non grata He-who-shall-not-be-named-or-else-thread-will-be-deleted.

Let us take my 2nd thread -- this time on the MR forum. Again, notice the replies. Also notice how helpful they were to every serious question I asked. :-:

You get out of FT (and also life but that's a different discussion ), as much as you put into it. Ask a stupid question, and get a nasty reply. Show that you respect others' time/efforts, and get some back in return.
Excellent post, and the last paragraph had more wisdom in it that lots of entire threads. I can understand why the stupid-question-asking-club members wouldn't agree with you, however.
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Old Aug 12, 2006, 5:48 pm
  #40  
 
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Hello.

I found this thread while trying to figure out this he-who-shall-not-be-named thing.... between that and Gemac's sig line there is clearly something going on here at FT, but from reading the AA board I can't quite figure it out. I think I may have wandered into a discussion about "how FT is changing and not for the better." I hope you don't mind if I share my thoughts with all of you.

A few things highlight for me how FT may be changing and becoming more of a place for random posters who have "poor netiquette" and/or little desire to stay engaged for any length of time.

The first was the ipod conga, where the number of posts was insane... I don't participate in congas but I remember thinking "what the heck does this have to do with flying, and who are all these people anyway?"

The second was the 12 Days of Xmas, where FT gave away miles every day if your name was selected and you replied in 24 hours. IIRC, about 2/3 of the names were people with ZERO post counts. And yet FT decided that they were eligible to win 1000s of miles! (Now, not many of them did, but they could have). The 12 Days game, I confess, made me wonder what I was doing here in the FT community. I felt like a loyal member, who tried to read and post respectfully, and it felt like FT was saying "hey newbies... here's what you can win for joining us!!" I really didn't like it.

The third is that FT seems to be getting much more press than in the past. I don't know if that's intentional or not, but clearly you get a different type of person when you are written up in mainstream publications (NYTimes, WSJ, USAToday) than when you're a smaller, viral community. If the goal is to give FT a higher visibility, well yes, then clearly more new people will show up! And travel is one of those subjects where (a) you get people of all knowledge levels (b) people's expectations of online communities may be very different than, say, online communities of Harley-Davidson enthusiasts or game players. Travel communities in general get a lot of random, one shot posts.

Okay, so those are the data points I see. So, what to do going forward? First of all, DallasAudiGuy remarked that age and netiquette habits may be related. I have to respectfully disagree with his opinion that older users are more "newbielike." In my research into online communities, I have noticed that older users are usually a bit more respectful and willing to sit back and watch before jumping in than younger users are. This probably has something to do with major societal trends and being part of a "linked, always-on world" in general.

I very much like the waiting period before posting and before starting threads. I think that's a great idea. Should somebody new have an absolutely urgent question, they could ask the moderator to be excused from the waiting period (and the mod could review the question in advance to make sure it's framed properly).

Regarding search on FT, my experiences with it have been mixed. Sometimes I don't know how to ask the question, even though I know the information must exist in a thread somewhere. Sometimes the search results are old, and I'm not sure I can rely on information that is 1 or 2 years old. Usually search works reasonably well, as well as it does for search technology in general.

I spend a fair amount of time on a few forums (AA, SPG), but recently I've had cause to post to BA and to United. Candidly, it feels a bit funny to feel like a newbie on a site that I joined years ago, but I'm still learning the ropes of many of the forums. I am grateful that people let me be a newbie on their forum, tho' I suspect that my post count (and hopefully polite manner) encourage helpful responses rather than a anti-newbie tirade.

Anyway, sorry for the very long post. They were just some random thoughts while I procrastinate on doing work.

Last edited by KSinNYC; Aug 12, 2006 at 5:57 pm Reason: add name of poster (DAG) when discussing the point he made, tighten language
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Old Aug 12, 2006, 6:18 pm
  #41  
 
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Hmmm. I thought I was posting this in the ORP thread. Oops.

Anyway, the ORP thread seems to be locked.

I will just let the mods figure out where to leave my post. Sorry for any confusion caused by my confusion.
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Old Aug 12, 2006, 6:40 pm
  #42  
 
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as a semi - noobie, my take is that the acroynms are the most difficult language to get ahold of on this board....

but that is the barrier to entry.

other than that, this forum is life changing.

And, in a sense, this board is what makes the internet great.

but then, i'm a glass half full kind of guy.
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Old Aug 12, 2006, 8:20 pm
  #43  
 
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Originally Posted by KSinNYC
Hello.

I found this thread while trying to figure out this he-who-shall-not-be-named thing.... between that and Gemac's sig line there is clearly something going on here at FT, but from reading the AA board I can't quite figure it out. I think I may have wandered into a discussion about "how FT is changing and not for the better." I hope you don't mind if I share my thoughts with all of you.

A few things highlight for me how FT may be changing and becoming more of a place for random posters who have "poor netiquette" and/or little desire to stay engaged for any length of time.

The first was the ipod conga, where the number of posts was insane... I don't participate in congas but I remember thinking "what the heck does this have to do with flying, and who are all these people anyway?"

The second was the 12 Days of Xmas, where FT gave away miles every day if your name was selected and you replied in 24 hours. IIRC, about 2/3 of the names were people with ZERO post counts. And yet FT decided that they were eligible to win 1000s of miles! (Now, not many of them did, but they could have). The 12 Days game, I confess, made me wonder what I was doing here in the FT community. I felt like a loyal member, who tried to read and post respectfully, and it felt like FT was saying "hey newbies... here's what you can win for joining us!!" I really didn't like it.

The third is that FT seems to be getting much more press than in the past. I don't know if that's intentional or not, but clearly you get a different type of person when you are written up in mainstream publications (NYTimes, WSJ, USAToday) than when you're a smaller, viral community. If the goal is to give FT a higher visibility, well yes, then clearly more new people will show up! And travel is one of those subjects where (a) you get people of all knowledge levels (b) people's expectations of online communities may be very different than, say, online communities of Harley-Davidson enthusiasts or game players. Travel communities in general get a lot of random, one shot posts.

Okay, so those are the data points I see. So, what to do going forward? First of all, DallasAudiGuy remarked that age and netiquette habits may be related. I have to respectfully disagree with his opinion that older users are more "newbielike." In my research into online communities, I have noticed that older users are usually a bit more respectful and willing to sit back and watch before jumping in than younger users are. This probably has something to do with major societal trends and being part of a "linked, always-on world" in general.

I very much like the waiting period before posting and before starting threads. I think that's a great idea. Should somebody new have an absolutely urgent question, they could ask the moderator to be excused from the waiting period (and the mod could review the question in advance to make sure it's framed properly).

Regarding search on FT, my experiences with it have been mixed. Sometimes I don't know how to ask the question, even though I know the information must exist in a thread somewhere. Sometimes the search results are old, and I'm not sure I can rely on information that is 1 or 2 years old. Usually search works reasonably well, as well as it does for search technology in general.

I spend a fair amount of time on a few forums (AA, SPG), but recently I've had cause to post to BA and to United. Candidly, it feels a bit funny to feel like a newbie on a site that I joined years ago, but I'm still learning the ropes of many of the forums. I am grateful that people let me be a newbie on their forum, tho' I suspect that my post count (and hopefully polite manner) encourage helpful responses rather than a anti-newbie tirade.

Anyway, sorry for the very long post. They were just some random thoughts while I procrastinate on doing work.
Very interesting and well thought out!

Forums evolve - there is a great article on this, but I can't seem to find it. IN the mean time -here is an excellent article that does address a few points

http://www.stevepavlina.com/articles...orum-usage.htm

Last edited by DallasAudiGuy; Aug 12, 2006 at 8:27 pm
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Old Aug 12, 2006, 8:40 pm
  #44  
 
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Originally Posted by wannabe_plat
I am sorry, I respectfully disagree here. I've never felt this anti-newbie ire, even when I started.

Let us look at my very first post on FT (was on AA), 3 years back -- link here. See who replied ? It is the now persona non grata He-who-shall-not-be-named-or-else-thread-will-be-deleted.

Let us take my 2nd thread -- this time on the MR forum. Again, notice the replies. Also notice how helpful they were to every serious question I asked. :-:

You get out of FT (and also life but that's a different discussion ), as much as you put into it. Ask a stupid question, and get a nasty reply. Show that you respect others' time/efforts, and get some back in return.

And I must respectfully disagree with you. Unfortunately I think it is some of the more knowledgeable, veteran members who are the worst offenders in terms of flaming new people.

It seems to me a lot of newbies don't know enough to know what they should be doing to help themselves. Then when they ask a question that is percieved as "stupid" they're flamed mercilessly by some of the high and mighty here at FT. That's crap.

There's really no excuse to be rude to someone, which is sometimes what I feel people are trying to justify with these types of threads. It is possible to be helpful and somewhat "corrective" without being abrasive and downright nasty.
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Old Aug 12, 2006, 8:43 pm
  #45  
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Just as a general comment as one of the five AA mods. We DO appreciate and listen to the feedback here. There have been some good points made both here and in the Only Randy Petersen thread.

I'll let Randy address the comments to him in his thread when he returns from vacation this week. You were not able to post there as the senior moderators for FT closed that thread after it exceeded several pages as they felt the relevant points to Randy had been made. I know he often does several hours of research on an issue before commenting and I've already sent him a direct to this thread as well.

As far as what the mods ARE doing. We ARE working on a FAQ for this forum. It will take time to get together so do bear with us. One of our team has volunteered to work on that and I know he has also talked to a few AA regulars about helping get content that is relevant to that. (It WILL take some time - we all have regular paid full-time jobs in addition to volunteering on FT and as well, FT *has* been a lot busier than normal this week!)

We are also continuing to follow the Guidelines and Rules for FT which is the governing document for all FT moderators in all forums. While each forum has its own posting style, we are tasked with trying to apply a relatively consistent standard across all forums - but more important, to develop a consistent standard (*within* these guidelines) for the AA forum. The five of us have been working together to do that so that might explain a sense of additional moderator presence lately as we work to make this consistent across AA.

I hope that answers a couple of questions that have come up. While its off-topic/against the Guidelines to discuss specific moderation actions (which can include member suspensions regardless of whether or not they occur in the AA forum), I think some transparency is important and I'm always happy to answer general questions about why/how we do what we do. Ultimately our goal is to make the AA forum a smooth and consistent place for posters of ALL experience levels to post. While the forum cannot be all things to all people, we'll continue to do what we need to do to make it useful to the majority.
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