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As a US citizen, what questions is Customs permitted to ask you on arrival in the US?

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Old Jan 2, 2008, 3:11 pm
  #226  
 
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Originally Posted by cestmoi123
Yup, now I'm sure he's a troll. If he works for the Federal Gov't, it's as a janitor. He does have an impressive collection of spy novels in his room in his parents' basement, however.

If this guy is even distantly involved in what he claims to be, he's committing security breaches here that would get him fired (at least) or arrested (most likely). I'm sure that wouldn't happen - after all, it's not like the NSA's computers wouldn't pick out this thread or anything.
I just spoke with James Bond and Austin Powers. Now granted, they are Brits, but they confirm he is "a seasoned spook" as he previously claimed.

ROFL. Sometimes, FT is just too funny.
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Old Jan 2, 2008, 3:19 pm
  #227  
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Originally Posted by cynicalflyer
There have been rumors and conspiracy theories since the founding of the nation.

The militia wackos used the "mysterious Executive Orders" during the run up to y2k to justify their idiocy. The EO's are online and available for anyone to read either in the Federal Register or http://www.archives.gov/federal-regi...cutive-orders/ The last one has a search engine. Try looking up concentration camps, or Constitution AND suspeded or suspension or what not.

Nowhere do they talk about suspending the Constitution. What they DO talk about is that in the even of catastrophic attack, etc. that certain rules, regulations and other POLICY restrictions are put on hold (ex. the Coast Guard becomes part of the Navy, or it used to) etc.
Careful -- you don't want to confuse the discussion by introducing actual facts.
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Old Jan 2, 2008, 3:41 pm
  #228  
 
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Originally Posted by cynicalflyer
There have been rumors and conspiracy theories since the founding of the nation.

The militia wackos used the "mysterious Executive Orders" during the run up to y2k to justify their idiocy. The EO's are online and available for anyone to read either in the Federal Register or http://www.archives.gov/federal-regi...cutive-orders/ The last one has a search engine. Try looking up concentration camps, or Constitution AND suspeded or suspension or what not.

Nowhere do they talk about suspending the Constitution. What they DO talk about is that in the even of catastrophic attack, etc. that certain rules, regulations and other POLICY restrictions are put on hold (ex. the Coast Guard becomes part of the Navy, or it used to) etc.
no doubt ... However, I was referring to some "mainstream" news reports, though, not the "other" (miltia wackos, etc) stuff

not that I put that much confidence in the North American media, mind you ...
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Old Jan 2, 2008, 4:21 pm
  #229  
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Question Question at law

Originally Posted by PTravel
Suspending the Constitution would, for all intents and purposes, constitute the overthrow of the government. Planning to do so constitutes sedition and treason.
Treason is only if done in the service of a foreign nation against which the US is at war?

Originally Posted by SchmeckFlyer
You don't need to be a lawyer or constitutional expert to know this, and that the constitution is supreme, both in war and peace.
Good point. It is perhaps the only thing many Americans know about the laws of the land.
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Old Jan 2, 2008, 4:26 pm
  #230  
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Originally Posted by Goldlust
Treason is only if done in the service of a foreign nation against which the US is at war?
You may be right -- I don't know. I do know that there is no such thing as, "suspending the Constitution." It's a legal oxymoron.
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Old Jan 3, 2008, 6:10 am
  #231  
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Originally Posted by SchmeckFlyer
You are right, of course. But there is still the more philosophical debate about whether or not the US government should be taxing citizens legally residing abroad in the first place. All the deductions and exemptions imply government has this right, and that it is the burden of the taxpayer to prove they should not pay taxes.
I know this is seriously off-topic, but he is quite WRONG to suggest that all that it takes is couple of good accounting tricks to avoid double-taxation, and in fact, one reason is that many things are NOT deductible. VAT is NOT tax deductible, so if you live in a high VAT, low income tax country (which is becoming the norm for Europe), then no amount of clever accounting enables you to avoid double taxation. Secondly US tax is calculated by converting all transactions into dollars. So, if this past year the home you own in, for example, Italy has not appreciated at all, you have a 20% capital gain to pay tax on just because of the depreciation of the dollar make the euro value of the house rise. So maybe you decide it's time to get a clever accountant, and he advises you to hedge the value by taking out an offsetting Euro loan. Except that next year the Euro goes down, so you have exchange rate losses on the loan in dollar terms, and guess what? Although the euro gains got treated as a taxable capital gain, the euro losses are not deductible. Anyone trying to claim there's some simple way out doesn't know what they are talking about.
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Old Jan 3, 2008, 6:30 am
  #232  
 
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Originally Posted by polonius
I know this is seriously off-topic, but he is quite WRONG to suggest that all that it takes is couple of good accounting tricks to avoid double-taxation, and in fact, one reason is that many things are NOT deductible. VAT is NOT tax deductible, so if you live in a high VAT, low income tax country (which is becoming the norm for Europe), then no amount of clever accounting enables you to avoid double taxation. Secondly US tax is calculated by converting all transactions into dollars. So, if this past year the home you own in, for example, Italy has not appreciated at all, you have a 20% capital gain to pay tax on just because of the depreciation of the dollar make the euro value of the house rise. So maybe you decide it's time to get a clever accountant, and he advises you to hedge the value by taking out an offsetting Euro loan. Except that next year the Euro goes down, so you have exchange rate losses on the loan in dollar terms, and guess what? Although the euro gains got treated as a taxable capital gain, the euro losses are not deductible. Anyone trying to claim there's some simple way out doesn't know what they are talking about.

going a little more off topic even:

to add insult to injury, I know of one company that calculates their expat's tax "as is" and "as if living in US". If there is any benefit to the employee the company takes it (the benefit amount) away from them. At least that's how one affected employee explained it to me ... hard to believe that there isnt something illegal about that ...
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Old Jan 3, 2008, 8:49 am
  #233  
 
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Originally Posted by PTravel
If, in fact, there are such policies, they are manifestly unconstitutional and demonstrate a complete lack of understanding of the nature of constitutional power on the power of those who would implement such policies (and on your part as well). Suspending the Constitution would, for all intents and purposes, constitute the overthrow of the government. Planning to do so constitutes sedition and treason.

And if, in fact, such policies exist, then I thank you for confirming what I have long suspected about the current administration, and I hope you will join me in calling for the impeachment of George Bush, and the imprisonment of any in government who have been a party to such un-American activities.
Just to play Devil's Advocate here, but is not martial law a limited abrogation of the Constitution? Limited in that it comes back into play once the threat is over?
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Old Jan 3, 2008, 10:45 am
  #234  
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Originally Posted by law dawg
Just to play Devil's Advocate here, but is not martial law a limited abrogation of the Constitution? Limited in that it comes back into play once the threat is over?
I'm not sufficiently familiar with the legal concepts underlying martial law, and can't intelligently discuss whether it has a constitutional basis or not. My response was to the contention that the Constitution can be suspended. It can not for the following reason:

The U.S. Constitution is premised on a fairly novel concept, which is that all power resides, not with the sovereign as in other countries, but with the people. That means that rights are not dispensed at the government's whim, but rather reserved to the citizens of the U.S. The Constitution is an enumeration of a very specific and narrow set of rights that were ceded to the federal government upon formation. If the government exercises its power beyond those limited powers that were ceded to it, it illegally usurps rights reserved to the people and acts as a tyrant.

There is no provision in the Constitution, meaning the people never ceded to the government, the power to suspend the Constitution and exercise additional powers reserved to the people.
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Old Jan 3, 2008, 10:52 am
  #235  
 
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Originally Posted by law dawg
Just to play Devil's Advocate here, but is not martial law a limited abrogation of the Constitution? Limited in that it comes back into play once the threat is over?
Martial law is constitutional ... Article 1 Section 8 says congress has the power to:

To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions;
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Old Jan 3, 2008, 10:56 am
  #236  
 
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Originally Posted by law dawg
Just to play Devil's Advocate here, but is not martial law a limited abrogation of the Constitution? Limited in that it comes back into play once the threat is over?
Short version: No.

Long version: We have to contemplate what precisely is meant by "martial law". The Supreme Court in Ex Parte Milligan gives some idea of this:
It follows, from what has been said on this subject, that there are occasions when martial rule can be properly applied. If, in foreign invasion or civil war, the courts are actually closed, and it is impossible to administer criminal justice according to law, then, on the theatre of active military operations, where war really prevails, there is a necessity to furnish a substitute for the civil authority, thus overthrown, to preserve the safety of the army and society; and as no power is left but the military, it is allowed to govern by martial rule until the laws can have their free course. As necessity creates the rule, so it limits its duration; for, if this government is continued after the courts are reinstated, it is a gross usurpation of power. Martial rule can never exist where the courts are open, and in the proper and unobstructed exercise of their jurisdiction. It is also confined to the locality of actual war. Because, during the late Rebellion it could have been enforced in Virginia, where the national authority was overturned and the courts driven out, it does not follow that it should obtain in Indiana, where that authority was never disputed, and justice was always administered. And so in the case of a foreign invasion, martial rule may become a necessity in one state, when, in another, it would be 'mere lawless violence.' We are not without precedents in English and American history illustrating our views of this question; but it is hardly necessary to make particular reference to them.
In short, martial law can be observed as being the use of military law in those areas in which the civil authority has ceased to exist ("there is a necessity to furnish a substitute for the civil authority"). Here, there is not so much a "declaration" of martial law as much as an acknowledgment: there is no civil authority anymore and the military is the only one around. Moreover, because the military itself derives its power and authority (and for that matter existence) from the state and/or Federal constitutions, it cannot be said that they are "suspended".

Keep in mind that "martial law" and "military government" are two different concepts. Again, from Milligan (Chase, C.J. concurring)
We have thus far said little of martial law, nor do we propose to say much. What we have already said sufficiently indicates our opinion that there is no law for the government of the citizens, the armies or the navy of the United States, within American jurisdiction, which is not contained in or derived from the Constitution. And wherever our army or navy may go beyond our territorial limits, neither can go beyond the authority of the President or the legislation of Congress.

There are under the Constitution three kinds of military jurisdiction: one to be exercised both in peace and war; another to be exercised in time of foreign war without the boundaries of the United States, or in time of rebellion and civil war within states or districts occupied by rebels treated as belligerents; and a third to be exercised in time of invasion or insurrection within the limits of the United States, or during rebellion within the limits of states maintaining adhesion to the National Government, when the public danger requires its exercise. The first of these may be called jurisdiction under MILITARY LAW, and is found in acts of Congress prescribing rules and articles of war, or otherwise providing for the government of the national forces; the second may be distinguished as MILITARY GOVERNMENT, superseding, as far as may be deemed expedient, the local law, and exercised by the military commander under the direction of the President, with the express or implied sanction of Congress; while the third may be denominated MARTIAL LAW PROPER, and is called into action by Congress, or temporarily, when the action of Congress cannot be invited, and in the case of justifying or excusing peril, by the President, in times of insurrection or invasion, or of civil or foreign war, within districts or localities where ordinary law no longer adequately secures public safety and private rights.
(CAPS in original)

Again, the notion of the establishment of a semi-permanent MILITARY GOVERNMENT (the civil authority is available and able but the military's in charge anyway) is NOT the same as the temporary use of MARTIAL LAW PROPER (the civil authority is either non-existent or incapacitated).
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Old Jan 3, 2008, 11:01 am
  #237  
 
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Originally Posted by cynicalflyer
Short version: No.

Long version: We have to contemplate what precisely is meant by "martial law". The Supreme Court in Ex Parte Milligan gives some idea of this:
It follows, from what has been said on this subject, that there are occasions when martial rule can be properly applied. If, in foreign invasion or civil war, the courts are actually closed, and it is impossible to administer criminal justice according to law, then, on the theatre of active military operations, where war really prevails, there is a necessity to furnish a substitute for the civil authority, thus overthrown, to preserve the safety of the army and society; and as no power is left but the military, it is allowed to govern by martial rule until the laws can have their free course. As necessity creates the rule, so it limits its duration; for, if this government is continued after the courts are reinstated, it is a gross usurpation of power. Martial rule can never exist where the courts are open, and in the proper and unobstructed exercise of their jurisdiction. It is also confined to the locality of actual war. Because, during the late Rebellion it could have been enforced in Virginia, where the national authority was overturned and the courts driven out, it does not follow that it should obtain in Indiana, where that authority was never disputed, and justice was always administered. And so in the case of a foreign invasion, martial rule may become a necessity in one state, when, in another, it would be 'mere lawless violence.' We are not without precedents in English and American history illustrating our views of this question; but it is hardly necessary to make particular reference to them.
In short, martial law can be observed as being the use of military law in those areas in which the civil authority has ceased to exist ("there is a necessity to furnish a substitute for the civil authority"). Here, there is not so much a "declaration" of martial law as much as an acknowledgment: there is no civil authority anymore and the military is the only one around. Moreover, because the military itself derives its power and authority (and for that matter existence) from the state and/or Federal constitutions, it cannot be said that they are "suspended".

Keep in mind that "martial law" and "military government" are two different concepts. Again, from Milligan (Chase, C.J. concurring)
We have thus far said little of martial law, nor do we propose to say much. What we have already said sufficiently indicates our opinion that there is no law for the government of the citizens, the armies or the navy of the United States, within American jurisdiction, which is not contained in or derived from the Constitution. And wherever our army or navy may go beyond our territorial limits, neither can go beyond the authority of the President or the legislation of Congress.

There are under the Constitution three kinds of military jurisdiction: one to be exercised both in peace and war; another to be exercised in time of foreign war without the boundaries of the United States, or in time of rebellion and civil war within states or districts occupied by rebels treated as belligerents; and a third to be exercised in time of invasion or insurrection within the limits of the United States, or during rebellion within the limits of states maintaining adhesion to the National Government, when the public danger requires its exercise. The first of these may be called jurisdiction under MILITARY LAW, and is found in acts of Congress prescribing rules and articles of war, or otherwise providing for the government of the national forces; the second may be distinguished as MILITARY GOVERNMENT, superseding, as far as may be deemed expedient, the local law, and exercised by the military commander under the direction of the President, with the express or implied sanction of Congress; while the third may be denominated MARTIAL LAW PROPER, and is called into action by Congress, or temporarily, when the action of Congress cannot be invited, and in the case of justifying or excusing peril, by the President, in times of insurrection or invasion, or of civil or foreign war, within districts or localities where ordinary law no longer adequately secures public safety and private rights.
(CAPS in original)

Again, the notion of the establishment of a semi-permanent MILITARY GOVERNMENT (the civil authority is available and able but the military's in charge anyway) is NOT the same as the temporary use of MARTIAL LAW PROPER (the civil authority is either non-existent or incapacitated).
When you're using the military to enforce civil law WITHOUT training? You think a lot of PC and reasonable suspicion will be justified utilizing articulable facts?

Fourth Amendment protections? Miranda rights? Warrants applied for and executed?

I'll bet dollars to donuts that none of that happens under martial law. I'm pretty sure it's do what the military tells you to do or else, at least in practice, if not in theory.

So yeah, I'd say it was a limited end-around of the Bill of Rights, at the very least.
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Old Jan 3, 2008, 11:05 am
  #238  
 
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Originally Posted by muddy
Martial law is constitutional ... Article 1 Section 8 says congress has the power to:
Is the military the militia then? Or duly deputized citizens?
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Old Jan 3, 2008, 11:09 am
  #239  
 
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Originally Posted by law dawg
When you're using the military to enforce civil law WITHOUT training? You think a lot of PC and reasonable suspicion will be justified utilizing articulable facts?

Fourth Amendment protections? Miranda rights? Warrants applied for and executed?

I'll bet dollars to donuts that none of that happens under martial law. I'm pretty sure it's do what the military tells you to do or else, at least in practice, if not in theory.

So yeah, I'd say it was a limited end-around of the Bill of Rights, at the very least.
Its called the Military Commissions Act of 2006 and it takes away all of your most important rights at the whim of the government. Thanks, George.
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Old Jan 3, 2008, 11:16 am
  #240  
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Although I would never want this to happen in the US, I think martial law would have a different flavor here than in most other countries. TV news seems to show instances of martial law including bands of rouge military units raping, plundering and pillaging and shooting up whatever and whoever they want.

But, if you take the context of "military law" as it relates to martial law, then, the US military or the National Guard presumably providing civil law enforcement would be bound by the Uniform Code of Military Justice. Among other things, the UCMJ points to the Constitution as its basis. As a matter of fact, the UCMJ contained Miranda-like protections long before Miranda occured (I want to say nearly 30 years before Miranda.) So, I guess you could say that the Constitution would not really be "suspended" in a martial law situation because the UCMJ points right back to it. Now, if there were maurading bands of NG guys or people being shot in the street by soldiers, these would be war crimes punishable under the UCMJ itself.

Military Governors conducting civil affairs in occupied or martial law territories are also under UCMJ and International Law of Armed Conflict constraints.

The UCMJ and ILAC were a couple of hundred years away when the Constitution was written, which is why, I believe, the language reads as scary as it does.
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