Unimatrix One

It seems everywhere on Flyertalk I see people singing ANA's praises, talking about how wonderful they are and how much better they are than JAL.

Am I missing something? I've flown ANA and JAL and I don't see what's so great about ANA. In fact I've had worse experiences with ANA. I've never found their people particularly good. In fact I've found them to be colder and more phony than JAL's people, who have always treated me with genuine warmth. And when it comes to advance seat assignments, ANA must be the worst airline other than Southwest. (It's extremely difficult for most regular people, i.e. non elite FFs or low-fare travelers to get an advance seat assignment.) And on ANA's domestic flights, they cram 10 seats into each row on a 777. Talk about torture! (JAL has the standard 9 seats across.)

ANA also basically cheated me out of a 2000 Yen fee once when they refused to refund the full amount of some "kaisuuken" multiple tickets I had bought. Of course there was no mention of any such cancellation fee in the rules (I read Japanese), but the ANA agent, who clearly regarded me as some unimportant foreign student who wasn't worth anything to the airline anyway, refused to budge. (Too bad for ANA I now spend $15K-$20K a year on business travel and give all of it to JAL.)

schoflyer

Actually, I believe that ORDnHKG feels ANA is overated also.

JAPGUY

I agree that ANA's Y isn't that good. Have you tried C?

[Edited to add:] If you have no status with ANA, put any of your frequent flyer numbers with Star Alliance Gold (or even Silver) status. Also, try booking through a major travel agency such as JTB. These often help for getting good seats (even in advance).

SEA_Tigger

I've only flown NH once, in New Style First, between JFK-NRT-JFK. It was the best flight I have ever taken. Other then a disappointing First Lounge in NRT, the service was fantastic, I had no problem booking the best seat in the cabin (2A), and the staff and crew treated me exceptionally well.

That being said, the only way you will get me across an ocean in Economy is on United (thanks to Economy Plus), so I'll never know NH's Economy product.

JAPGUY

P.S. As for refunding "kaisuken", I'm not sure which one you exactly got, but

http://www.ana.co.jp/sales/dms/charge6_fr.html

clearly states the fees if you read Japanese. Just FYI, it is uncommon in Japan to refund anything without a fee at least (unless it's their fault, of course).

[Edited to add:] Another page on terms and conditions for the kaisuken (including fees for refunding): http://www.ana.co.jp/sales/dms/sales_guide/repeat4.html

JackR

Hi,

If you compare JAL with ANA, you will find small details to talk about.
Most raving talk about ANA comes when compared to all other carriers especially the US based ones
I agree that in Y it might not be a big difference but at least FA's will smile, the toilets will be clean and the experience will be civilized.

obarou

this question depends on what you address....
as others have mentioned, comparing Y on ANA and JAL is like comparing
oranges with...well, oranges. from the same tree, for that matter.
the differences are minimal, especially on domestic flights.
yes, 3-4-3 on the NH777 is awful, but JL domestic seats are just about as tight in terms of pitch. but having said that, the average flight time for a Japanese domestic flight is about 1hr...
the only real difference in terms of domestic flying is in the F cabin...NH has taken the premium approach by offering preboarding, food on some flights, priority security, etc...while JL has opted to target the masses with a cheaper price.

not to be an elitist, but i think what most FT members usually rave about NH
is their premium serivice on their long international routes, especially on their 'flagship' routes (NRT-JFK/LHR). even here, the differences are very minimal between NH/JL...but I guess that's what FTers like to sit and talk about, right?
so...limiting my comments to the flagship 'new style' NH service and JL w/ new solo F and shell-flat seats....here are a few thoughts:
NH F: seats are perfection. They are wide and spacious and 10 seats in the
nose of the 747-400 is pure luxury. service is immaculate as it should be.
JL F: JL squeezes one more seat in their cabin and their seats feel
somewhat cheaper. more prominent, is the smaller PTV screen...the NH
screen is HUGE.
although debatable, in Japan, it is often said that NH service is more friendly vs the elite name bearing JL... this is subjective.

personally, i think the bigger differences are in the C cabin.
The seats are pretty much the same, but the NH seats are warmer in color and presentation (faux wood trim, blue coloring...) and the shellflat seats are
sleeker and more modern (black/gray metallic trim) - again, subjective to tastes.
a few pros and cons:
NH: they always have a upper deck C cabin on the newly configured planes (747s). these are the best seats in the house. some JL planes are equipped with Y on the upperdeck (great if you're flying Y). also PTVs are in the armrests..JL PTVs are built into the shell in front of you, and make for difficult viewing when lying flat...

JL has a foot stop that manually pops out from the legrest. this is very useful to prevent one from sliding down these slanted seats, also the armrests recline with the seats, giving a slightly wider seat effect when flat.

the bigger difference is in the service, and where I believe NH has the bigger edge. NH food service is almost comparable to F on other carriers. all courses are plated, arranged and brought out individually on restaurant style plates by FAs and never on carts. the presentation is beautiful and wine glasses and plates are similar quality to those used in NH F.
On the other hand, I think JL food service is awful in C. it is fancy Y food. everything is pre-plated and on a tray, and they use the same food wagons as Y to deliver food in a very impersonal way. also the food stickers that they put on the seats for the FAs to remember if the passenger is having fish/meat/or Japanese is very tacky. food quality is inferior too.

I think the difference comes from the HUGE C cabin in JL. the JFK route flies
a config. with almost all C in the lower deck... which results in cattleclass-like service.

either way you fly, there is no going back to UA or AA once flying these Japanese carriers, but when given my choice, my money always goes to NH
for the slight overall advantage (better alliance too).

JAPGUY

Caution: What follows is very subjective and maybe controversial, so please just ignore if you find it too weak...

In my impression from various sources, many (though not all) frequent flyers in Japan seem to have better impression with ANA than with JAL. There are several examples at least, but to give a few:

1. A passenger was once downgraded on JAL from C to Y and was promised in writing at the gate for compensations including the C bonus miles. However, JAL later refused to keep the promise saying that it is more than the rule (Y miles only, refund for the difference between the paid C and the normal Y only, and a ~$100 coupon which can be picked up at their office in Tokyo only.) Yes, rules are rules, but what was their written promise then...?

2. A JAL FA sued the company because she couldn't earn as much as before - since she got a baby to take care of and couldn't fly as much due to the schedules (in particular international). Her previous income was like $10,000 per month which reduced to $2,000/month or so. OK, there are "equality for women" laws, but isn't $10,000/month a little too much...?

3. JAL (as a company) sued ANA because ANA "stole" their patent for e-tickets. I wonder if the patent was very original in the first place...

ORDnHKG

For flying in Y, if I can choose, definately JL for the service, but since I don't belong to oneworld, I would still choose NH to get EQM for my UA account, also to be able to use their lounges in NRT as a 1P.

If I am flying in F or C, and I can choose, would definately choose CX or SQ, those are my top choices, would NEVER consider NH or JL at all if I am paying for the ticket. Although many reports of NH is so good about their new style F, I still stuck with CX or SQ, this two airlines have been commented the most by many articles, I never heard or read any reports other than the people in this board about NH and JL being the best F and C services in the world.

JackR

1. Between JL and NH I'll take NH anytime.
2. When NH does not fly the sector, I'll take SQ for sure followed by CX.
I think the 3 carriers (SQ,CX,NH) do not compete on many direct routes making them very complimentary.
NRT-LHR would be NH (would not want to go the long way NRT-HKG-LHR (for CX) or NRT-SIN-LHR (for SQ) would you ?
NH is sure to be top on any route they compete in similar class :
NRT-JFK NH vs UA
NRT-LHR NH vs BA vs JL vs VS
NRT-CDG NH vs AF vs JL
I agree that on the NRT-LAX route where both NH and SQ fly, I would eagerly choose SQ if it were not for my extra bonus miles on NH...

NihonNick

Ignoring Frequent Flyer status (which in this case I could), and finally having sampled both, I have to disagree about NH being better than VS on the NRT-LHR route in C.

NH does have better flight and connection times in Japan and more consistent service. However the VS Upper Class Suite is far better than NH's slopey seat (broadly comparable (and I think more comfortable in bed-mode) to the NH New Style First), and their Panasonic AVOD system is superior to the NH offering, and their lounges at both ends offer more amenities than the comparable NH offerings. VS also include onboard massage, better amenity kits, pyjamas and a haircut in the lounge in London. If you are in one of the higher fare classes VS also throw in limo transfers at both ends.

All-in-all I don't find NH business to be better than VS business on a direct comparison.

Nick

JackR

Point taken, I forgot about VS's superior C product on the NRT-LHR route. VS is also much like NH a minor carrier doing things very well on its few routes in its own ways.

Unimatrix One

This was 8 years ago, so I don't know what the rules are now. 8 years ago when I tried to get my refund, the only published rule regarding cancellation fees was for a 400-yen administrative fee. I was willing to accept that, since it was in the rules and I knew about it when I bought the tickets. But the agent that I spoke with told me I would also have to pay another 2000 Yen. She said this was because I had once booked a reservation using one of the tickets and then later canceled it. Well, with kaisuuken you're not supposed to have to pay a fee when you cancel a reservation based on one of the tickets (at least not 8 years ago). But this agent was saying that because I was now trying to return the tickets themselves, I would also have to pay another 2000 Yen fee. This was mentioned NOWHERE in any of the rules, and when I explicitly asked ANA about cancellation fees earlier they said the only fee for returning kaisuuken was the 400 Yen administrative charge.

Anyway, I was too tired to argue with this agent in Japanese, so I eventually just accepted the charge and then walked away feeling screwed. I now wish I had stayed and fought.

Unimatrix One

I've seen a lot of people complain about JAL C service. They don't like the pre-plated meals for example, and the carts. First of all, the only thing that comes from the cart is the main meal. The other items, i.e. appetizers, desserts, after-dinner coffee, come from nice-looking trolleys. Second of all, I really do not care if something comes on a tray from a cart. It is still a nice looking tray! I mean if we want to get into details, let me point out that the tray has a nice little cloth (place mat?) on it and perfectly decent china and flatware. And I don't know where the complaints about food quality come from. I have found JAL food to be at least as tasty as anything in C on any of the other airlines I've flown, which include KL, CO, NW, and AA. (OK, I admit three of those are US airlines, and we all know that US airlines don't even come close to Asian carriers' service.) In fact the best meal I've ever had in the air was on JAL.

And let me also state that by far the best service, in terms of the attitude of the crew, that I have ever received has been in JAL C class. The flight attendants are simply wonderful and always go out of their way to answer all my questions and requests with genuine warmth and professionalism.

ORDnHKG

FA in JAL Y class even as good as in C class. I flew NH this year quite a number of times for transpacific, intra-asia, and domestic Japan routes, I only find the FA on domestic Japan were nice, some of it for international are quite cold. They are not apologetic when something you request is not available, just simply say "No, we don't have it!" Although I find most of the NH FA have better spoken English than JL FA.