Note to CCY
Mar 29, 2005, 6:14 am
#1
Original Poster
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: Long Island, NY
Programs: CoFounder and Chairman, FFOCUS (Frequent Flyers Organized and concerned about Unacceptable Service.
Posts: 1,341
Note to CCY
The note below was sent to CCY through a reputedly reliable method...and was summarliy ignored. Here it is for your comments and reactions--be civil now......
To whom it may concern: (obviously no one)
This is being sent in the spirit of open communication and concern--this is something you and your colleagues need to hear.......
Your best customers have had enough. You and your team are making stupid decisions which will save you nothing and cost you the revenue of your most loyal customers, who are being invited by you to go elsewhere.
No one disputes the devastating impact fuel has had on your bottom line and your alleged plan of recovery. On the other hand no one wants to see this company survive and grow more than your most loyal customers, many of whom are represented by our organization FFOCUS. However, the lack of operational planning and the inability to deal with the operational issues which currently plague the company as illustrated in a recent post on both flyertalk and US Aviation by a VERY LOYAL CUSTOMER say it all....http://www.usaviation.com/forums/ind...howtopic=19274 (Refers to the post "The Lipstick is Gone".
The DOT report came out which was a scathing indictment of your management team, and there was no response from US. No retraction of the statements blaming labor (yes they shared in the responsibility, but facts are facts). The president of COMAIR resigned for heavens sake even though his management was not blamed for their problem.
Regardless of what your intent is, or your reasoning, perception is reality to most people, and that is the perceived truth. So perhaps you can explain why....
You gut your staffing although most of your kiosks don't work..WHY?
You outsource cleaning and other functions and no one oversees the operation--planes, gates, and common areas are FILTHY--WHY?
Outsourcing has been a proven failure at other companies and many off shore jobs are being brought back to the US due to failures and backlash from customers. States are making legislation prohibiting them from doing business with companies who outsource...IT COSTS MORE IN THE LONG RUN and you will eventually have to bring the work back. WHY?
You make a decision to close more clubs--now you've closed almost 30% of your club network in the past year or so...yet you raise the price of club membership for those who want to use RCC as well....did you anticipate the outcry and refund requests which are certainly forthcoming?? Did you foresee the fact that SFO and LAX club closings will now result in most of your customers flying UA or other carriers on transcons? We PAY for the clubs..other airlines are refurbishing their clubs and some provide free bar service...you're cutting???? WHY?
Your labor buyouts are resulting in your best most experienced employees walking out the door--did you realize that these people are the main reason your most loyal customers stay loyal?? Did you anticipate that these customers would be walking out the door right behind these employees???? WHY?
You make a big deal and waste millions at FLL only to draw it down and realize you made a mistake--you didn't plan for the inability of the infrastructure to handle the traffic. WHY???? Perception is reality--how do you think that blunder made you look?
You continue to refuse to think outside the box and make changes which could not only save you money but reduce costs further? WHY?
1. Dump the GO FARES--they are designed to steal customers from Greyhound Air and other LCC's--Business travelers don't care about these artificially low fares--we're willing to pay a little more for your product--but your product is no longer worth the premium. We understand you have to base your pricing on cost plus to stay alive, but obvously you don't. WHY NOT?
2. RATIONALIZE the fare structure NOW-- DL did it and it is proving to be revenue positive...more travelers who otherwise would not fly would take to the skies at REASONABLE rates. I would never again pay $985 to go to CLT and back from LGA, but I wouldn't expect it for $49 either...
DL's CVG experiment succeeded. AS and HP have had rational fares for a while now and they are in much better shape than you are.
3. DUMP THE DEAD WOOD--US has the best employees in the business--many of whom are leaving. There are also, however, some employees who show up and find any excuse not to work--workers who refuse to work should be shown the door NOW. I am tired of pulling into a gate and having no one to park the airplane or unload the bags--plan for your operations efficiently...it can be done. Recently a pilot had to go back to unload carryons--only then did the rampers come out of the break room....if they don't want to work, show them the door--they are a drag on the company. How many millions did it cost you to deliver luggage over the past quarter?? This applies to management as well by the way...
4. OPERATE and PLAN SMART SCHEDULES--You can cut costs by expanding on the rolling hub, and improving productivity by scheduling more flying time for aircraft and crews as allowed in your new agreements...you aren't making use of it. Further more, you could do like AA did--dedicate a subfleet to PHL so when the hub goes down other parts of the system aren't dragged down too. Dedicate a crew to a single airplane for the whole day--eliminates crew-caused schedule distruptions.
US Airways up until recently had the potential to come back stronger and more secure than ever--but it appears you have blown the chance. You were given MILLIONS in concessions and did nothing with that...WHY??? It ain't just fuel here, folks...
Don't take us for granted--you are seriously at risk of losing your BEST and most LOYAL customers now. Can you afford to lose the revenue?
This is a wake up call people-- you are on the verge of losing one of your key support groups: frequent travelers!! I welcome the opportunity to discuss these issues further on a one to one basis and will travel to wherever at my own expense to do so.
This is not confrontational, it is a statement of fact as we see it----deal with us.......we want some answers or we are surely gone......up until now we wanted to be your biggest allies--but you apparently don't care if we go elsewhere.
Sincerely,
To whom it may concern: (obviously no one)
This is being sent in the spirit of open communication and concern--this is something you and your colleagues need to hear.......
Your best customers have had enough. You and your team are making stupid decisions which will save you nothing and cost you the revenue of your most loyal customers, who are being invited by you to go elsewhere.
No one disputes the devastating impact fuel has had on your bottom line and your alleged plan of recovery. On the other hand no one wants to see this company survive and grow more than your most loyal customers, many of whom are represented by our organization FFOCUS. However, the lack of operational planning and the inability to deal with the operational issues which currently plague the company as illustrated in a recent post on both flyertalk and US Aviation by a VERY LOYAL CUSTOMER say it all....http://www.usaviation.com/forums/ind...howtopic=19274 (Refers to the post "The Lipstick is Gone".
The DOT report came out which was a scathing indictment of your management team, and there was no response from US. No retraction of the statements blaming labor (yes they shared in the responsibility, but facts are facts). The president of COMAIR resigned for heavens sake even though his management was not blamed for their problem.
Regardless of what your intent is, or your reasoning, perception is reality to most people, and that is the perceived truth. So perhaps you can explain why....
You gut your staffing although most of your kiosks don't work..WHY?
You outsource cleaning and other functions and no one oversees the operation--planes, gates, and common areas are FILTHY--WHY?
Outsourcing has been a proven failure at other companies and many off shore jobs are being brought back to the US due to failures and backlash from customers. States are making legislation prohibiting them from doing business with companies who outsource...IT COSTS MORE IN THE LONG RUN and you will eventually have to bring the work back. WHY?
You make a decision to close more clubs--now you've closed almost 30% of your club network in the past year or so...yet you raise the price of club membership for those who want to use RCC as well....did you anticipate the outcry and refund requests which are certainly forthcoming?? Did you foresee the fact that SFO and LAX club closings will now result in most of your customers flying UA or other carriers on transcons? We PAY for the clubs..other airlines are refurbishing their clubs and some provide free bar service...you're cutting???? WHY?
Your labor buyouts are resulting in your best most experienced employees walking out the door--did you realize that these people are the main reason your most loyal customers stay loyal?? Did you anticipate that these customers would be walking out the door right behind these employees???? WHY?
You make a big deal and waste millions at FLL only to draw it down and realize you made a mistake--you didn't plan for the inability of the infrastructure to handle the traffic. WHY???? Perception is reality--how do you think that blunder made you look?
You continue to refuse to think outside the box and make changes which could not only save you money but reduce costs further? WHY?
1. Dump the GO FARES--they are designed to steal customers from Greyhound Air and other LCC's--Business travelers don't care about these artificially low fares--we're willing to pay a little more for your product--but your product is no longer worth the premium. We understand you have to base your pricing on cost plus to stay alive, but obvously you don't. WHY NOT?
2. RATIONALIZE the fare structure NOW-- DL did it and it is proving to be revenue positive...more travelers who otherwise would not fly would take to the skies at REASONABLE rates. I would never again pay $985 to go to CLT and back from LGA, but I wouldn't expect it for $49 either...
DL's CVG experiment succeeded. AS and HP have had rational fares for a while now and they are in much better shape than you are.
3. DUMP THE DEAD WOOD--US has the best employees in the business--many of whom are leaving. There are also, however, some employees who show up and find any excuse not to work--workers who refuse to work should be shown the door NOW. I am tired of pulling into a gate and having no one to park the airplane or unload the bags--plan for your operations efficiently...it can be done. Recently a pilot had to go back to unload carryons--only then did the rampers come out of the break room....if they don't want to work, show them the door--they are a drag on the company. How many millions did it cost you to deliver luggage over the past quarter?? This applies to management as well by the way...
4. OPERATE and PLAN SMART SCHEDULES--You can cut costs by expanding on the rolling hub, and improving productivity by scheduling more flying time for aircraft and crews as allowed in your new agreements...you aren't making use of it. Further more, you could do like AA did--dedicate a subfleet to PHL so when the hub goes down other parts of the system aren't dragged down too. Dedicate a crew to a single airplane for the whole day--eliminates crew-caused schedule distruptions.
US Airways up until recently had the potential to come back stronger and more secure than ever--but it appears you have blown the chance. You were given MILLIONS in concessions and did nothing with that...WHY??? It ain't just fuel here, folks...
Don't take us for granted--you are seriously at risk of losing your BEST and most LOYAL customers now. Can you afford to lose the revenue?
This is a wake up call people-- you are on the verge of losing one of your key support groups: frequent travelers!! I welcome the opportunity to discuss these issues further on a one to one basis and will travel to wherever at my own expense to do so.
This is not confrontational, it is a statement of fact as we see it----deal with us.......we want some answers or we are surely gone......up until now we wanted to be your biggest allies--but you apparently don't care if we go elsewhere.
Sincerely,
Mar 30, 2005, 4:28 am
#5
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: BOS
Programs: JetBlue Mosaic, WN A List Preferred, Hyatt Globalest, Hilton Diamond, Marriott Platinum, IHG Spire
Posts: 3,966
Did You Email It?
You may have a better shot of the letter being read if you email it directly to the applicable managers, since presumably, they do at least look at their email. My sense is that any paper mail, or 90% of it, from customers is forwarded off to consumer affairs who will:
*Report on your complaint to management namely in the agrigate. E.g. we got x number of complaints this month on cleanliness of aircraft; and
*Send you a very generic form letter that won't specifically tell you why they have not done it the way you suggest, and won't tell you if they plan too.
I know the email addresses are readily available for all the US managers who attended Roachfest, and you could surmise other email addresses by looking at the format of said addresses
.
*Report on your complaint to management namely in the agrigate. E.g. we got x number of complaints this month on cleanliness of aircraft; and
*Send you a very generic form letter that won't specifically tell you why they have not done it the way you suggest, and won't tell you if they plan too.
I know the email addresses are readily available for all the US managers who attended Roachfest, and you could surmise other email addresses by looking at the format of said addresses
.
Mar 30, 2005, 5:26 am
#6
Original Poster
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: Long Island, NY
Programs: CoFounder and Chairman, FFOCUS (Frequent Flyers Organized and concerned about Unacceptable Service.
Posts: 1,341
Delivery
Jetsetter,
I know it got where it was intended--they just chose to ignore it...
Their silence is deafening.....
I know it got where it was intended--they just chose to ignore it...
Their silence is deafening.....
Mar 30, 2005, 5:32 am
#7
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: mystic island, nj, USA
Posts: 2,377
I have sent an e-mail to Mr Ashby as well let's see if we get a response.
It was a VITO letter. If any of you sell or teach sales you'll know what that is. If not, it means I have provided a specific date and time that I will follow up in the VITO letter. The time is Friday April 1 between 9AM & 10AM.
Let's see if he actually will get on te phone with a customer? Anyone giving odds?
It was a VITO letter. If any of you sell or teach sales you'll know what that is. If not, it means I have provided a specific date and time that I will follow up in the VITO letter. The time is Friday April 1 between 9AM & 10AM.
Let's see if he actually will get on te phone with a customer? Anyone giving odds?
Mar 30, 2005, 9:07 am
#8
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Atlanta, GA
Posts: 723
Great letter, typical sorry US mgmt response
Art234,
As usual you make some excellent points. Its a damn shame that you've not received any type of response. I think that is pathetic.
I'm just about done with US. I've got over 250K in Dividend Miles that I've been saving for a my honeymoon. I'm not sure which will happen, the wedding or the end of US. We've not yet set a date and I'm sure it won't happen in the next twelve months so I am starting to feel like my plans for fantastic F class trip for us to some far away island may not happen unless I come up with some big bucks.
I hope someone at US starts to figure out they are on the verge of near destruction and I don't they could ever be as good as SW or JB at being an LCC without a full clean sweep of the current employee base. NOT that I want US to be a LCC but that seems to be the direction their headed by their continued devalue of the product line.
Sad, just plain sad.
As usual you make some excellent points. Its a damn shame that you've not received any type of response. I think that is pathetic.
I'm just about done with US. I've got over 250K in Dividend Miles that I've been saving for a my honeymoon. I'm not sure which will happen, the wedding or the end of US. We've not yet set a date and I'm sure it won't happen in the next twelve months so I am starting to feel like my plans for fantastic F class trip for us to some far away island may not happen unless I come up with some big bucks.
I hope someone at US starts to figure out they are on the verge of near destruction and I don't they could ever be as good as SW or JB at being an LCC without a full clean sweep of the current employee base. NOT that I want US to be a LCC but that seems to be the direction their headed by their continued devalue of the product line.
Sad, just plain sad.
Mar 30, 2005, 9:44 am
#9
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Programs: UA 1K 1MMer & LT UC (when flying UA); Hyatt Credit Cardist; HHonors Diamond; Marriott Gold via UA 1K
Posts: 6,960
I sent two complaint letters: 1 to Deborah Thompson, and the other to Bruce Ashby. Yesterday I received a call from someone in Deborah Thompson's office, and we chatted for about 10 minutes. He told me that CA was inundated with complaints this weekend, so it's taking them a while to respond to people. He also mentioned that Deborah does have quite a bit of influence with CCY when there is a customer backlash. In this particular instance, the complaints have been overwhelmingly from US1's and US2's (surprise, surprise), so my recommendation -- especially if you're a US1 or US2, is to just flood Consumer Affairs with complaints.
By the way...I told him that I booked a flight on UA the other day, which up until last week would have been a shoe-in for US. The LAX club closure was the final straw for me. Then I sent him a nice follow up e-mail explaining why I booked UA over US, and he said he'd make sure it got into the right hands. I have pasted an excerpt from my e-mail below:
1) The fare on UA was $378, vs. $490 on US for roughly the same schedule. I can justify spending an extra $110 to fly US, but...
2) ...my only viable option on US on the outbound was a 7AM flight through PHL. The only other flight besides the redeye was a 1PM flight through PHL that would have gotten me into AVP at 11:51PM. The Phildelphia factor, combined with...
3)...the fear of having to arrive at LAX by 4:30 or 5AM for a 7AM flight in order to clear security due to all of the WN flights on a peak travel day (Saturday before July 4), and then...
4)...if by some miracle the security line is short, I have no sanctuary in the stinkhole which is Terminal 1 at LAX in which to pass the time prior to boarding, influenced me to choose United. To top it off...
5) ...the codeshare flight in which the outbound would have been on UA which would have enabled me to avoid the above scenarios and still book US and fly them on the return was over $800! I may be willing to pay a rational premium to fly US, but not over twice as much!
By the way...I told him that I booked a flight on UA the other day, which up until last week would have been a shoe-in for US. The LAX club closure was the final straw for me. Then I sent him a nice follow up e-mail explaining why I booked UA over US, and he said he'd make sure it got into the right hands. I have pasted an excerpt from my e-mail below:
1) The fare on UA was $378, vs. $490 on US for roughly the same schedule. I can justify spending an extra $110 to fly US, but...
2) ...my only viable option on US on the outbound was a 7AM flight through PHL. The only other flight besides the redeye was a 1PM flight through PHL that would have gotten me into AVP at 11:51PM. The Phildelphia factor, combined with...
3)...the fear of having to arrive at LAX by 4:30 or 5AM for a 7AM flight in order to clear security due to all of the WN flights on a peak travel day (Saturday before July 4), and then...
4)...if by some miracle the security line is short, I have no sanctuary in the stinkhole which is Terminal 1 at LAX in which to pass the time prior to boarding, influenced me to choose United. To top it off...
5) ...the codeshare flight in which the outbound would have been on UA which would have enabled me to avoid the above scenarios and still book US and fly them on the return was over $800! I may be willing to pay a rational premium to fly US, but not over twice as much!
Mar 30, 2005, 9:50 am
#10
A FlyerTalk Posting Legend
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: NY Metro Area
Programs: AA 2MM Yay!, UA MM, Costco General Member
Posts: 49,089
Excellent letter. However, I think the expression that best applies to this letter is "pissing in the wind".
I wrote a raving praise of US here based on some service I had from them right after Christmas. In it I said I was committed to flying US. Then I had to deal with US a few more times. In thinking about the great service I was so pleased about it was in response to a totally screwed up situation that shouldnt have happened to begin with. In fact I would say most of my positive feelings towards US are because the CP desk has gone out of their way to fix something that US has messed up to begin with. Many of not most of these problems are FAR less frequent on at least some other carriers in my opinion. And Im not buying the "it happens on other carriers too" excuse. I flew 100K miles on UA and 50K miles on AA last year and problems happen a LOT more on US in my experience. Moreover, the level of onflight service in all cabins is better on those carriers than on US.
I also received from US a short time after this a letter responding to a previous complaint about multiple delayed flights. It was a completely lame response in my opinion, dealing only with the one flight I was on, not with the complaint in the letter about a large number of delayed flights and other problems due to understaffing.
Despite my previous praise, they have once again left me wondering why bother. All of my upcoming flights are on UA and AA. My NYC-DC travel is booked on Amtrak. Im in a complete wait and see mode with these people.
I wrote a raving praise of US here based on some service I had from them right after Christmas. In it I said I was committed to flying US. Then I had to deal with US a few more times. In thinking about the great service I was so pleased about it was in response to a totally screwed up situation that shouldnt have happened to begin with. In fact I would say most of my positive feelings towards US are because the CP desk has gone out of their way to fix something that US has messed up to begin with. Many of not most of these problems are FAR less frequent on at least some other carriers in my opinion. And Im not buying the "it happens on other carriers too" excuse. I flew 100K miles on UA and 50K miles on AA last year and problems happen a LOT more on US in my experience. Moreover, the level of onflight service in all cabins is better on those carriers than on US.
I also received from US a short time after this a letter responding to a previous complaint about multiple delayed flights. It was a completely lame response in my opinion, dealing only with the one flight I was on, not with the complaint in the letter about a large number of delayed flights and other problems due to understaffing.
Despite my previous praise, they have once again left me wondering why bother. All of my upcoming flights are on UA and AA. My NYC-DC travel is booked on Amtrak. Im in a complete wait and see mode with these people.
Mar 30, 2005, 11:49 am
#11
Suspended
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Philadelphia, PA USA
Programs: US Airways (*A) Gold, United, Priority Club Platinum, Starwood Preferred, HHonors Gold, Hyatt Gold
Posts: 302
I too would ignore such dribble.
Your best customers have had enough? I think they know that only a very few (in terms of % of flyers) are hardcore enough to care about many of these issues. It does not help matters that many of the issues these few care about are so petty such as glassware in FC.
Fuel - Do you happen to know what the $$ picture would be if fuel was at last year levels? Here again we are making claims without facts. Would $ 10 a barrel lower fuel prices change the profit / loss levels at US? Of course! How much? I don't know and either do you so maybe you should find out before making your statement. You say "devastating impact", does that mean that after all of the cuts (wages & service) would US be profitable? Or at least as profitable as they forecasted to be by now?
FFOCUS & Lipstick - Don't get me started on the Twinkies but do keep me updated how many clubs were reopened after sending the Tubes. Good Grief.
The DOT report - I still do not understand why you guys give the workers such a free pass. Yes, I read the report. Yes, many (most?) of the US employees are great but the fact remains that in PHL there was a PA announcement that because of the wage concessions, all bags would be delayed. The attitude of many of the workers must change from a "union - full pay till the last day" thinking to a more market driven outlook. Yes, management has not done their job as best they could but to me this is like blaming the police for not responding faster when a drunken husband beats his wife. Yes, the police should have been there faster but ultimately the husband is at fault.
Kiosks don't work - Again, how many of them are down compared to the total amount, 5%, 10%, 50%, 75%? And how does this compare to the industry? Without this information your statement is like a kid complaining about everything.
Filthy planes - Yep, they are disgusting. How about we look at the real reason? Lets change the work rules so the F/A can help clean the planes between flights. Folks, I'm not just making this stuff up - Jetblue and Southwest do it and it works.
Outsourcing has been a proven failure at other companies? What world are you living in? You really do not have to be a Real Estate Salesman in Hamden, CT to understand outsourcing. I hate outsourcing as much as the rest but at least I understand. If you are really concerned about losing American jobs, why not a campaign against US using Airbus instead of Boeing. Why worry about a hundred or so jobs and ignore thousands? The real issue here is the complete lack of credibility of your statements. In fact, they do not pass the giggle test. No wonder they are ignored.
Club Closings - now it seems that we hit the real issue that prompted the Lipstick Revolution. All other things (bad or good) are about the same as they were six months ago but this issue really seems to hit a few nerves. Understand, but in the whole scheme of US operations and the millions of other issues they are dealing with, I would think that this would seem to them as trivial. In any event, do we know their final plans? Will they enter into a partnership agreement out West with other clubs? I don't know either but would it not be better to ask the questions before we all went on a hissy fit?
Labor Buyouts - Listen, the airline industry just can not pay top dollar for many of their jobs. Period. Why this concept is not understood by all is beyond me. Months ago we were all yelling how a F/A can not raise a family of four on her income. Duh! Unlike pilots and mechanics - unpacking bags from the plane and being a F/A are just not high value skilled jobs. Sorry to say but true.
FLL - this actually seemed like a good idea to me. Sorry to hear that the plan failed, if it in fact is dead.
Outside the Box Thinking - you may not like their thinking (as I don't many times) but you must admit that it is a small miracle that US is still around. Read again the Transformation Plan. I did and it still make sense to me.
GO FARES & fare structures - here I may be out of my element but I do remember paying $ 900 from PHL - PIT and $ 129 PHL - SFO. However the new low fares are filling the planes so you can safely say that the flying public (i.e. the customers) seem to like it - other than us of course. But here again is a argument that I never understood, kind of like those who claim not to mind paying more taxes. Here is my solution - go ahead and pay more. For every ticket you buy, pay the highest possible fare. This way you will feel better and US will make more money.
DUMP THE DEAD WOOD - Sorry to offend you like this but I could not agree more!
My point is simple. If you want others to take you seriously you must make serious arguments. Otherwise they will take your note as just another silly rant and toss it. In case you still don't understand: sending Lipstick to protest club closing is stupid and takes away from the real serious issues.
Fuel - Do you happen to know what the $$ picture would be if fuel was at last year levels? Here again we are making claims without facts. Would $ 10 a barrel lower fuel prices change the profit / loss levels at US? Of course! How much? I don't know and either do you so maybe you should find out before making your statement. You say "devastating impact", does that mean that after all of the cuts (wages & service) would US be profitable? Or at least as profitable as they forecasted to be by now?
FFOCUS & Lipstick - Don't get me started on the Twinkies but do keep me updated how many clubs were reopened after sending the Tubes. Good Grief.
The DOT report - I still do not understand why you guys give the workers such a free pass. Yes, I read the report. Yes, many (most?) of the US employees are great but the fact remains that in PHL there was a PA announcement that because of the wage concessions, all bags would be delayed. The attitude of many of the workers must change from a "union - full pay till the last day" thinking to a more market driven outlook. Yes, management has not done their job as best they could but to me this is like blaming the police for not responding faster when a drunken husband beats his wife. Yes, the police should have been there faster but ultimately the husband is at fault.
Kiosks don't work - Again, how many of them are down compared to the total amount, 5%, 10%, 50%, 75%? And how does this compare to the industry? Without this information your statement is like a kid complaining about everything.
Filthy planes - Yep, they are disgusting. How about we look at the real reason? Lets change the work rules so the F/A can help clean the planes between flights. Folks, I'm not just making this stuff up - Jetblue and Southwest do it and it works.
Outsourcing has been a proven failure at other companies? What world are you living in? You really do not have to be a Real Estate Salesman in Hamden, CT to understand outsourcing. I hate outsourcing as much as the rest but at least I understand. If you are really concerned about losing American jobs, why not a campaign against US using Airbus instead of Boeing. Why worry about a hundred or so jobs and ignore thousands? The real issue here is the complete lack of credibility of your statements. In fact, they do not pass the giggle test. No wonder they are ignored.
Club Closings - now it seems that we hit the real issue that prompted the Lipstick Revolution. All other things (bad or good) are about the same as they were six months ago but this issue really seems to hit a few nerves. Understand, but in the whole scheme of US operations and the millions of other issues they are dealing with, I would think that this would seem to them as trivial. In any event, do we know their final plans? Will they enter into a partnership agreement out West with other clubs? I don't know either but would it not be better to ask the questions before we all went on a hissy fit?
Labor Buyouts - Listen, the airline industry just can not pay top dollar for many of their jobs. Period. Why this concept is not understood by all is beyond me. Months ago we were all yelling how a F/A can not raise a family of four on her income. Duh! Unlike pilots and mechanics - unpacking bags from the plane and being a F/A are just not high value skilled jobs. Sorry to say but true.
FLL - this actually seemed like a good idea to me. Sorry to hear that the plan failed, if it in fact is dead.
Outside the Box Thinking - you may not like their thinking (as I don't many times) but you must admit that it is a small miracle that US is still around. Read again the Transformation Plan. I did and it still make sense to me.
GO FARES & fare structures - here I may be out of my element but I do remember paying $ 900 from PHL - PIT and $ 129 PHL - SFO. However the new low fares are filling the planes so you can safely say that the flying public (i.e. the customers) seem to like it - other than us of course. But here again is a argument that I never understood, kind of like those who claim not to mind paying more taxes. Here is my solution - go ahead and pay more. For every ticket you buy, pay the highest possible fare. This way you will feel better and US will make more money.
DUMP THE DEAD WOOD - Sorry to offend you like this but I could not agree more!
My point is simple. If you want others to take you seriously you must make serious arguments. Otherwise they will take your note as just another silly rant and toss it. In case you still don't understand: sending Lipstick to protest club closing is stupid and takes away from the real serious issues.
Last edited by phillyd2; Mar 30, 2005 at 11:54 am
Mar 30, 2005, 12:13 pm
#12
Original Poster
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: Long Island, NY
Programs: CoFounder and Chairman, FFOCUS (Frequent Flyers Organized and concerned about Unacceptable Service.
Posts: 1,341
Disillusioned
Originally Posted by phillyd2
Your best customers have had enough? I think they know that only a very few (in terms of % of flyers) are hardcore enough to care about many of these issues. It does not help matters that many of the issues these few care about are so petty such as glassware in FC.
It's not about glassware in F--it's about the product as a whole.
Fuel - Do you happen to know what the $$ picture would be if fuel was at last year levels? Here again we are making claims without facts. Would $ 10 a barrel lower fuel prices change the profit / loss levels at US? Of course! How much? I don't know and either do you so maybe you should find out before making your statement. You say "devastating impact", does that mean that after all of the cuts (wages & service) would US be profitable? Or at least as profitable as they forecasted to be by now?
Do you know???? No one knows..there are other things they could have done, but didn't.
FFOCUS & Lipstick - Don't get me started on the Twinkies but do keep me updated how many clubs were reopened after sending the Tubes. Good Grief.
Purely symbolic and since you are obviously devoid of a sense of humor, we'll skip it.
The DOT report - I still do not understand why you guys give the workers such a free pass. Yes, I read the report. Yes, many (most?) of the US employees are great but the fact remains that in PHL there was a PA announcement that because of the wage concessions, all bags would be delayed. The attitude of many of the workers must change from a "union - full pay till the last day" thinking to a more market driven outlook. Yes, management has not done their job as best they could but to me this is like blaming the police for not responding faster when a drunken husband beats his wife. Yes, the police should have been there faster but ultimately the husband is at fault.
We are not giving labor a free pass--they are responsible for much of it, but there is no excuse for a management which was totally unprepared..
Kiosks don't work - Again, how many of them are down compared to the total amount, 5%, 10%, 50%, 75%? And how does this compare to the industry? Without this information your statement is like a kid complaining about everything.
According to agents we speak with regularly it can be between 30 and 60 percent at any given time...and the rest of the industry is not likely as ill prepared to deal with it.
Filthy planes - Yep, they are disgusting. How about we look at the real reason? Lets change the work rules so the F/A can help clean the planes between flights. Folks, I'm not just making this stuff up - Jetblue and Southwest do it and it works.
It's happening and it is not working--FA's have other things to do and the people hired to clean are unsupervised.
Outsourcing has been a proven failure at other companies? What world are you living in? You really do not have to be a Real Estate Salesman in Hamden, CT to understand outsourcing. I hate outsourcing as much as the rest but at least I understand. If you are really concerned about losing American jobs, why not a campaign against US using Airbus instead of Boeing. Why worry about a hundred or so jobs and ignore thousands? The real issue here is the complete lack of credibility of your statements. In fact, they do not pass the giggle test. No wonder they are ignored.
You are totally wrong--outsourcing at Dell resulted in a backlash which brought most of their c/s and tech support back to the US. Delta is bringing more res back as their choice of a vendor could not understand English.
Club Closings - now it seems that we hit the real issue that prompted the Lipstick Revolution. All other things (bad or good) are about the same as they were six months ago but this issue really seems to hit a few nerves. Understand, but in the whole scheme of US operations and the millions of other issues they are dealing with, I would think that this would seem to them as trivial. In any event, do we know their final plans? Will they enter into a partnership agreement out West with other clubs? I don't know either but would it not be better to ask the questions before we all went on a hissy fit?
We did ask the questions and they went unanswered..Also, other things are MUCH worse than they were 6 months ago, so it's okay for you to pull your head out of the sand now.
Labor Buyouts - Listen, the airline industry just can not pay top dollar for many of their jobs. Period. Why this concept is not understood by all is beyond me. Months ago we were all yelling how a F/A can not raise a family of four on her income. Duh! Unlike pilots and mechanics - unpacking bags from the plane and being a F/A are just not high value skilled jobs. Sorry to say but true.
FLL - this actually seemed like a good idea to me. Sorry to hear that the plan failed, if it in fact is dead.
Outside the Box Thinking - you may not like their thinking (as I don't many times) but you must admit that it is a small miracle that US is still around. Read again the Transformation Plan. I did and it still make sense to me.
There is no transformation plan to read-they haven't finished it yet.....
GO FARES & fare structures - here I may be out of my element but I do remember paying $ 900 from PHL - PIT and $ 129 PHL - SFO. However the new low fares are filling the planes so you can safely say that the flying public (i.e. the customers) seem to like it - other than us of course. But here again is a argument that I never understood, kind of like those who claim not to mind paying more taxes. Here is my solution - go ahead and pay more. For every ticket you buy, pay the highest possible fare. This way you will feel better and US will make more money.
You miss the point entirely...The low fares are filling the planes and causing even more losses...you must work at Crystal City....
DUMP THE DEAD WOOD - Sorry to offend you like this but I could not agree more!
May I show you the door???
My point is simple. If you want others to take you seriously you must make serious arguments. Otherwise they will take your note as just another silly rant and toss it. In case you still don't understand: sending Lipstick to protest club closing is stupid and takes away from the real serious issues.
It's not about glassware in F--it's about the product as a whole.
Fuel - Do you happen to know what the $$ picture would be if fuel was at last year levels? Here again we are making claims without facts. Would $ 10 a barrel lower fuel prices change the profit / loss levels at US? Of course! How much? I don't know and either do you so maybe you should find out before making your statement. You say "devastating impact", does that mean that after all of the cuts (wages & service) would US be profitable? Or at least as profitable as they forecasted to be by now?
Do you know???? No one knows..there are other things they could have done, but didn't.
FFOCUS & Lipstick - Don't get me started on the Twinkies but do keep me updated how many clubs were reopened after sending the Tubes. Good Grief.
Purely symbolic and since you are obviously devoid of a sense of humor, we'll skip it.
The DOT report - I still do not understand why you guys give the workers such a free pass. Yes, I read the report. Yes, many (most?) of the US employees are great but the fact remains that in PHL there was a PA announcement that because of the wage concessions, all bags would be delayed. The attitude of many of the workers must change from a "union - full pay till the last day" thinking to a more market driven outlook. Yes, management has not done their job as best they could but to me this is like blaming the police for not responding faster when a drunken husband beats his wife. Yes, the police should have been there faster but ultimately the husband is at fault.
We are not giving labor a free pass--they are responsible for much of it, but there is no excuse for a management which was totally unprepared..
Kiosks don't work - Again, how many of them are down compared to the total amount, 5%, 10%, 50%, 75%? And how does this compare to the industry? Without this information your statement is like a kid complaining about everything.
According to agents we speak with regularly it can be between 30 and 60 percent at any given time...and the rest of the industry is not likely as ill prepared to deal with it.
Filthy planes - Yep, they are disgusting. How about we look at the real reason? Lets change the work rules so the F/A can help clean the planes between flights. Folks, I'm not just making this stuff up - Jetblue and Southwest do it and it works.
It's happening and it is not working--FA's have other things to do and the people hired to clean are unsupervised.
Outsourcing has been a proven failure at other companies? What world are you living in? You really do not have to be a Real Estate Salesman in Hamden, CT to understand outsourcing. I hate outsourcing as much as the rest but at least I understand. If you are really concerned about losing American jobs, why not a campaign against US using Airbus instead of Boeing. Why worry about a hundred or so jobs and ignore thousands? The real issue here is the complete lack of credibility of your statements. In fact, they do not pass the giggle test. No wonder they are ignored.
You are totally wrong--outsourcing at Dell resulted in a backlash which brought most of their c/s and tech support back to the US. Delta is bringing more res back as their choice of a vendor could not understand English.
Club Closings - now it seems that we hit the real issue that prompted the Lipstick Revolution. All other things (bad or good) are about the same as they were six months ago but this issue really seems to hit a few nerves. Understand, but in the whole scheme of US operations and the millions of other issues they are dealing with, I would think that this would seem to them as trivial. In any event, do we know their final plans? Will they enter into a partnership agreement out West with other clubs? I don't know either but would it not be better to ask the questions before we all went on a hissy fit?
We did ask the questions and they went unanswered..Also, other things are MUCH worse than they were 6 months ago, so it's okay for you to pull your head out of the sand now.
Labor Buyouts - Listen, the airline industry just can not pay top dollar for many of their jobs. Period. Why this concept is not understood by all is beyond me. Months ago we were all yelling how a F/A can not raise a family of four on her income. Duh! Unlike pilots and mechanics - unpacking bags from the plane and being a F/A are just not high value skilled jobs. Sorry to say but true.
FLL - this actually seemed like a good idea to me. Sorry to hear that the plan failed, if it in fact is dead.
Outside the Box Thinking - you may not like their thinking (as I don't many times) but you must admit that it is a small miracle that US is still around. Read again the Transformation Plan. I did and it still make sense to me.
There is no transformation plan to read-they haven't finished it yet.....
GO FARES & fare structures - here I may be out of my element but I do remember paying $ 900 from PHL - PIT and $ 129 PHL - SFO. However the new low fares are filling the planes so you can safely say that the flying public (i.e. the customers) seem to like it - other than us of course. But here again is a argument that I never understood, kind of like those who claim not to mind paying more taxes. Here is my solution - go ahead and pay more. For every ticket you buy, pay the highest possible fare. This way you will feel better and US will make more money.
You miss the point entirely...The low fares are filling the planes and causing even more losses...you must work at Crystal City....
DUMP THE DEAD WOOD - Sorry to offend you like this but I could not agree more!
May I show you the door???
My point is simple. If you want others to take you seriously you must make serious arguments. Otherwise they will take your note as just another silly rant and toss it. In case you still don't understand: sending Lipstick to protest club closing is stupid and takes away from the real serious issues.
Now that I have responded you are free to take your wind up tactics elsewhere.
Mar 30, 2005, 12:46 pm
#13
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 478
Originally Posted by Art234
These are very serious arguments and to the other 99% of people on this and other boards they make perfect sense.
Now that I have responded you are free to take your wind up tactics elsewhere.
Now that I have responded you are free to take your wind up tactics elsewhere.
On one hand, I think that most of us have had enough and are justifiably pissed. We could fly on other airlines in most cases. I agree that U has shown typical goofy planning (from our perspective).
On the other hand, if I received tubes of lipstick from my patrons/clients I might be tempted to use it as an excuse to write them off as cranks if I didn't agree with their position.
Mar 30, 2005, 1:17 pm
#14
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Brooklyn, New York, USA
Posts: 50
Originally Posted by PineyBob
It was a VITO letter. If any of you sell or teach sales you'll know what that is. If not, it means I have provided a specific date and time that I will follow up in the VITO letter.
Mar 30, 2005, 2:16 pm
#15
A FlyerTalk Posting Legend
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: NY Metro Area
Programs: AA 2MM Yay!, UA MM, Costco General Member
Posts: 49,089
Originally Posted by USHARE
Maybe I watch too much "Sopranos", but I intially feared this was something far worse. . .