JohnAx

QF offers three times weekly service SYD-JFK with a stop at LAX, and has rights to carry international stopover traffic on the U.S. segment. Some FT'ers have had luck in booking them as part of an OWE, others (recently) have at least gotten a verbal hard time from Qantas.

The generally-stated issue is that Qantas insists that pax on the U.S. segment arrive or depart the U.S. on a QF flight, and someone suggested it was because it somehow maximizes Qantas revenue.

I don't know the first thing about airline pricing structures, but I imagine that a SYD-JFK ticket just might not be that much more than a SYD-LAX ticket, so I wasn't convinced by that argument.

Today I noted a posting on the Qantas forum by one of their pax stating that his understanding of the requirement is that you must arrive or leave the U.S. on BA or QF - essentially "anyone but American".

Like almost everything else about this subject, YMMV, but it's one more interesting rumor to chew on.

number_6

SYD-LAX USD 8266
SYD-JFK USD 10766

A mere USD 2500 extra revenue for QF.
Of course this is worst case (full F one way fare, without taxes or fuel surcharge). Discounting is rampant, circa 40%, but even so you can see why QF wants to keep those scarce and very saleable QF107 F seats for its own use.

NM

Its nothing to do with revenue. It is a US Dept of Transport ruling that QF can only carry passengers on the domestic sectors of QF107/108 if they have arrived into the USA or will depart from the USA on a Qantas flight on the same itinerary.

I flew this route last week as part of a DONE4. I arrived into the USA on CX from HKG and was to depart on BA JFK-LHR. I was booked on QF107 LAX-JFK with a direct connection to BA114 JFK-LHR. I had been in the USA for 2 weeks since arriving on CX and had flown several AA domestic sectors in that time.

On arrival into JFK, I was paged by name to see the gound staff as I left the aircraft. I was met by the QF Airport Manager for JFK who wanted to know who had booked my itinerary (ie which travel agency and the name of the agent). He wanted to contact them to inform them that I was not entitled to be carried on QF107 and the booking should not have been made. He was very polite, but did mention that if the US DOT found out, QF could be fined. He said it was unlikely they would find out in this particular case, but still wanted to contact the agent to ensure they knew the rules.

I asked him for clarification about when a person can book this sector, as my understanding was that I could book it with a direct international connection in JFK. He said no, I must have arrived into USA on QF or depart USA on QF on the same itinerary. In all my previous uses of this USA domestic sector on QF, I have arrived into USA on QF so it has not been a problem.

Something flagged the problem in the booking to the QF Airport Manager at JFK while I was in the air. He found the problem and went to the effort of meeting the aircraft, having me paged and asking for my TA details. He was serious about the risk of fine for QF if they did not adhere to the rules underwhich they are permitted to operate the flight.

By the eway, that flight is a great use of 14,000 QF FF points to upgrade from business to first class!

JohnAx

Not to criticize the post, but I've read so many different things from other posters who sounded equally certain, had equally reliable sources, and seemed equally sincere, that I think we (the FT community) know nothing about the real QF107/8 situation.

What is likely, since a number of FT'ers have successfully flown the route, is that Qantas does not have a systematic way of checking, nor are they excited enough about any possible "fines" to implement such a system. Nor did they deny boarding to the poster, which would have been what I'd have trained my station manager to do, under threat of a government fine. Government regulators are humorless and generally expect obedience, so after a couple of fines, Qantas might stand the risk of having to move their pax across the U.S. in Greyhound buses - not something to be too casual about.

KIR@GCM

I am now in the planning stages for yet another DONE4 and was considering the QF transcon when the skybed product is available. Curious whether it would be possible to book the QF sector under the AA codeshare (AA7366/7365), assuming that this flight must be part of an international connection to outside of the USA?

number_6

Not true. There is a finding published on the DOT web site from a US Attorney that addresses cabotage. A secondary point in the finding is that carriage to/from the US can be on any carrier, not restricted to the carrier of the domestic leg, to avoid cabotage. The only requirement is that it must be on the same ticket (doesn't even have to be the same PNR, since that isn't a legal contract of carriage). I really hate it when an airline follows the law for several years, then decides to change things and makes up a fictitious law change to cover their own policy, done strictly for commercial competitive reasons. They should have the guts or the pride in their policy to say that it is their idea, they are doing it because they can, and if you don't like it, tough. Not that the government forced them to do it, when it simply isn't true and in this case the evidence is in the public domain. So QF just comes off looking incompetent at best and devious and usury at worst. I guess they figure it affects so few people that it just doesn't matter and they can get away with it. In any case QF has the legal right to refuse to sell you a ticket, for any reason that they want (of course you have the legal right to sue them for discrimination, if they are in violation of any US laws), so when push comes to shove it is QF that is deciding to whom those tickets are sold. In any case for me it is academic, I've been rerouting my QF108 flights JFK-SYD to be on CX JFK-YVR-HKG-MEL and that makes for a much nicer flight. Cost QF a bit of revenue, but CX has been treating me well.

Dave Noble

I agree that a company can refuse to serve any customer, however once the sale has been made , they should not be able to use that reason for not serving since the payment has already been accepted surely

Dave

NM

Do you have a link to this published finding?

What financial benefit is there for QF to not want to sell me a seat on QF107 LAX-JFK? By carrying me on that flight they get a greater portion of the DONE4 fare than they would if AA carried me. Its not as if the flight was oversold.

I believe the QF Airport Manager at JFK truely believed the rule as he stated it to me. Now, he may have been wrong, but going on my experience I believe that is what he believes the situation to be.

Viajero

I don't understand why that QF Airport Manager got his knickers in a knot. If I book a 'wrong' segment, and the airline accepts it, and carries me, ...why the fuss after the fact? why page me, give me a hard time, ask about my TA, etc.?

PresRDC

Without a doubt, using QF on the U.S. transcon segment is a nice way to do LAX-JFK or vice-versa, but the alternative, AA in F on a three-class flight is really quite nice for a medium length flight within the U.S.. If you select a lunch or dinner flight, the standard of the in-fligth service will be high. My experience in F on this route is that FAs "get it" that they are carrying mostly paying premium pax and make an effort to provide excellent service.

Personally, I would stress over the QF option when the AA option is perfectly acceptable for the length of the flight.

MiamiPrep

I just checked my records. I flew AA #7365 from SYD-JFK (with a stop in LAX) on 5/21/04 for a total of 22,169 miles (9,853 base & 12,316 bonus). This was in C class on the QF flight on DONE04.

I'm guessing the posting was about taking QF for the US domestic portion only, which I thought was "illegal".

azmmza

the flight lax-jfk can not be done by itself but it can be done as part of an international ticket.

i remeber 2 years ago booking a lax-lhr flight on aa.com and one of the options was lax-jfk on qf and jfk lhr on aa i would have taken it were it no for qf giving 70% milage in discount Y

NM

He did not give me a hard time at all. He just wanted to know which TA had done the booking so he could contact them and let them know "the rules" so they don't make a similar mistake again. He was very polite and courteous. Certainly no knickers in a knot. The whole conversation took only a few minutes.

He was not accusing me of doing anything wrong and in fact we discussed my understanding of the rules (similar to posted by number_6) and he again said that in order for QF to sell the domestic sector, QF had to carry me into or out of the country. It is quite possible he was wrong in his understanding, but that does not change the fact that QF are unwilling to sell that sector except when they carry you into or out of the USA.

NM

Unfortunately, AA in F on a 3-class trans-con is not available to a QF FF member flying on a DONE4 fare. I would be stuck in business class. By taking QF107, I have the option to use 14,000 QF FF points to get in the QF F cabin. I would love the opportunity to use AA in F, but alas I can't unless I move to AAdvantage and take advantage of their more generous upgrade policies. Of course another advantage for me to use QF107 is that it arrives at the same terminal as the BA departure to LHR, where using AA LAX-JFK will require a terminal change or use of AA trans-Atlantic.

I have taken QF107 LAX-JFK several times, but it is only this last trip where I did not enter or leave USA on QF (arrived on CX from HKG and departed on BA to LHR). I don't think I want to get into an arguement over the legal issues of cabotage with a checkin agent at LAX. So from now on I will only book the USA domestic sectors of QF107/108 in conjunction with a QF arrival or departure to/from USA.

daniellam

So did you have to clear US Customs/Immigration in JFK? Wonder what the INS officers would say when they see that you have just arrived from LAX and not SYD!