chuck1

I know some airlines hold way back on Z inventory and then sometimes as little as a day or two before departure tend to dump some of their F seats in to the Z bucket.

Let's say QF allocates 2 Z seats to a certain flight. If those are taken, do they not allocate any of the remaining F seats to Z much closer to departure even if there are a lot remaining?

If not, is the only way to get Z seats to open up is if one of the original passengers with a Z booking cancels?

In particular, I am speaking of QF12 on June 9 LAX-SYD which is F8 but Z0 and returning June 15 SYD-LAX QF149 and QF107 which are both F9 but Z0.

I understand these are huge money making seats for QF and maybe they choose to allocate no Z seats or just 1 or 2, but why wouldn't they allocate more of the unsold seats to Z closer to departure rather than having them fly empty?

I know there is a cost to putting a body in those seats, but wouldn't they also gain revenue by having the customer buy future QF seats in their quest for more miles and spend money with their partners to earn more miles which also makes money for them?

number_6

A special rule applies to QF11/QF12 -- no award redemptions. So your chances of Z opening up closer to departure on QF12 is well known ... it is zero. QF will operate these flights with empty F seats rather than open up Z.

For QF107 etc. there is some chance of Z opening up, but not very frequently. QF has a quota of how many award seats it operates per month and will open up more seats only when it is running behind quota (due to cancellations). Even then the more desirable flight times are usually kept closed (they have greater chance of last-minute purchased seats) and the Z will be opened on the least desirable flight (typically the last one out of LAX, for example). It is a very different system from AA, which does make all F seats available for upgrades and awards once yield management decides they won't sell.

I've had the discussion with several QF personnel about why they choose to fly empty seats rather than make more available for upgrades or awards, and the answer is that leaving the seats empty maintains the value of the product. It also provides less work and more food for the crew, so they are in favour of this system.

Dave Noble

Perhaps there are a number of people who wish to upgrade and use points that way. Perhaps check the flights a day or so prior to departure and check the status

Dave

AussieMiles

Not always enforced though - I have flown Award Business (U) on QF11. It may be different for First (Z)???

chuck1

AA tells me that if QF decides to allocate Z seats on 11/12 then they are able to book that flight.

og

Fine, but QF have said "permanent blackout on redemption upgrades" (or whatever) for QF 11/ 12. That makes AA totally true and totally unachievable (unless they - QF - decide otherwise..)

RTW4

I am a QF platinum and have had QF 11 opened for me on a "z" ticket on request. One of the advantages I guess of being platinum...

Leanne

Sorry - you are wrong on the last account. QF 11/12 is always FULL. Therefore on the odd occassion where there are spare seats in Premium classes they are left for late sales ( a regular occurance ) & if they do not sell marketing prefer not to "downgrade" the product & offer the seats for upgrades or awards. As these flights has the best timings for connections & also decent departure/arrival times they are very popular & the flights of choice for most business travellers. As far as the crew is concerned - catering is "spot" on nowdays - 12 customers/12 meals.(dont drop one!) When the crew are not busy in these cabins - they have their hands full helping "down" the back
Take a peak behind the curtain one day - it is non stop - (300 plus customers to 6 crew )so we are happy to help there - lighten the load for our peers & you actually have time to answer a call bell. Marketing today "rules" the roost with these decisions no matter how any of us feel. You would think they would be happy to "burn" customer FF points - less debit on the books but then it can discourage people buying Premium seats.
It is a shame for everyone.

number_6

When did this happen? I've always had my first choice of meals on QF, which suggests there are spare meals just to provide some choice. Otherwise half the pax won't get what they want -- why have a menu then? I simply don't believe this can be true, it would decimate the F product (which is partly about choice and accomodating the customer's wishes). Or does QF have enough non-revs in F to provide for slack in menu selection? Also it is a common sight to see "leftovers" going in to the pilots (or do their contracts call for F catering for their crew meals?).

I do know that QF11/12 are always full (for good reason). My point is that QF is more likely to fly with an empty seat than to release Z inventory. Of course Z releases do happen, for a variety of reasons (mostly based on who you or your agent knows). Even getting A released is tough on some dates.

chuck1

I still can't believe that not releasing additional Z seats on wide open F flights close to departure is the right business move.

I know that when I can't get a Z seat on QF it certainly does not endear me to them and make me want to buy a ticket or utilize one of their FF partners which in both cases should earn them revenue.

In fact, it makes me want to buy a ticket on the competition and their partners!

I guess QF feels like they dominate this market so much that they really don't have too much to lose by not releasing more seats.

Dave Noble

I suggest that QF are perhaps a bit more experienced at running a profitable airline though

Dave

AussieMiles

As I mentioned above - this is not always the case. Myself and a colleague both flew "U" class on the same QF11 flight. I haven't flown "U" on QF12 though.

number_6

Oneworld is quite interesting that way, as the various members run the gamut on their stand in this strategy. AA has a "fill every seat, no matter what" strategy (and that an award or upgrade is better than an empty seat); AA yield management actually opens up seats for awards over time. CX has a "limited availability but open up close to departure" strategy. Quite difficult to get ahead of time, and much easier to get on short notice (less than a week) or if you are completely flexible. CX seems to fully cater each flight (unlike BA which is often short on meals and leaves F/J seats empty due to lack of catering) and does a lot of opups as well as paid upgrades and awards at departure. QF has a spreadsheet strategy: here are the awards for the quarter (or year), and no deviation from that.

I suppose the real problem is that millions of Americans are saving up their FF miles for years to redeem F awards to 2 destinations: HNL on AA and Australia on QF. Or so it seems sometimes.

bigjobs

i reckon i could run a profitable airline if my government continued to protect the international route that gives me 20 -25% of my profit each year.

i would like to see how QF changes with genuine competition across the pacific. I think they would struggle a bit.

number_6

Is this why CL was invented?