Flew AA next gen. J-class, liked it a lot
Jul 20, 2006, 5:50 pm
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Flew AA next gen. J-class, liked it a lot
I'll put this post up in sections to paint with some broad stokes first and then add some more detail over the next day or so. Writing this first part on the return flight SJU-JFK.
In summary, I like this new seat very much and think American has done a very good job of putting together a seat that most people, I think, will be quite happy with.
Different people have different priorities and I don't have any problem envisioning that a certain % of people will not agree that this seat is what they hoped for. For me though, the seat exceeds in several ways what I expected-- but, of course, that's my expectations-- and that's a very, very individual thing, an absolute study in subjectivity.
One thing that IMHO is -not- subjective-- or at least is something that I feel 90%+ will agree on; this seat is a major, major improvement over the current J-seat. Now many would point out that those are mighty small shoes to fill, but, beyond that, this seat is unquestionably a huge leap forward in comfort. In my mind, there's really just no question about that.
When I tested an early prototype version of this seat, my impression was simple and to some extent, disturbing. While I found the seat very comfortable for relaxing, I did -not- enjoy the sleeping position(s). We were surveyed on this and several of the other testers seemed to have similar input-- "I can't really sleep well in this thing." Main problem; too much angle.
Happy to report what I think is the most important aspect of this post; I find the seat's sleeping positions to be quite comfortable. The feeling of "sleeping while sort of standing" that I felt in the test seat-- and to a slightly lesser degree Cathay's current J-seat (and LX even less so)-- is, from my initial encounter with this seat, not present. I didn't feel like I was sliding down the seat or that I essentially had to "brace" against the footrest extension in order to stay in the seat. JL and IB are my 2 favorite of the current generation of these kind of seats and while, for various reasons, I wouldn't put AA's NGBC seat quite in the league of those two it shares their most important characteristic-- I can sleep very comfortably in it.
The biggest potential problem with angled lie-flats, IME, is the sensation-- real or perceived-- that one has to struggle to stay in place and/or that one has to brace against the "step" extension of the footrest to keep from inching down in the seat. I just did not feel like the angle that is present in these AA seats was noticeable and/or detrimental compared to the way I always feel it in CX J.
The sleep position button seems to have more than one function in that if you hold it down in the sleep position it slightly alters the seating position. If I had to guess, it feels like one position has more thigh support (for back sleepers) and the other is more dead flat-- I assume for side sleepers-- where the extra support in the thigh area would actually be a downside. And a few subtle positions in between by holding the button down for a sec. Great feature and they should document it-- I don't think it's mentioned. BTW, you know that photo that shows that big drop-off by the calves? I have to take another look at that photo-- 'cause it really doesn't exist, IME-- or it does, but it doesn't feel the way it looks (if that makes any sense.) And, as some surmised, the angle of that photo makes the foot area appear to be smaller and more cramped than it is.
The seat is so adjustable that the number of relaxing positions is virtually infinite. I love that aspect of this seat-- little adjustments here and there and one can really find numerous very comfy positions. Very advanced in this area. The seat cushion is adjustable in addition to the other areas and that gives this seat a flexibility that I haven't encountered before in J.
Now the downsides; some that I feel are gonna' be universal complaints others that will be critical flaws to some but practically inconsequential to others.
The window seat. If you're in this seat and your neighbor is sleeping, eating or IFEing a relaxed position, you are -not- getting out without a degree of cooperation on his/her part. The pitch of these seats feels more like domestic 762 J than current 763 (or even 777) J. You do however "own" all your space for the duration of the flight-- no one reclines into you and you don't recline into anyone else-- like all new generation J seats that I know of. A big plus in my book.
But, again, the window seat? Not for me. I love sitting in the window but unless I have an empty seat next to me (which I did on the way down) the window seat will not work for me-- pretty much ever. Then again, I don't book windows on CX/LX/JL/IB either-- but this is a little more difficult than those, I think.
I'll miss you, window seat, we had some good times.
Problem compounded by the location of the 12v socket and I suppose the headphone cord to AVOD IFE unit when present and loaded into the seatback.
I'm wondering if for very little cost, if AA could add an auxiliary 12v plug in the console behind each seat. It's really only about 4 inches from he existing 12v and I think it's just empty housing there (or it appears that way.)
I think AA should seriously consider doing this-- I know everything costs $$-- and more $$ than would be apparent-- but in my little mind, I think this would be very inexpensive to do and would add greatly to the convenience of those who use in-seat power.
The center section feels more roomy for a variety of reasons-- especially compared to the window-- and you don't have to mount-- or be mounted by-- anyone to get out. I think windows usually fill up first so I don't anticipate a problem getting a seats in the center, where I am now and where I will always be unless I can get an empty next to me--then the window section is great. The center bins are nowhere near as big as I thought they would be so that could be a bit of a problem boarding late w/ large carry-on in a full cabin.
The center console extends very far forward so combined with tray usage, etc. getting out of your window seat can be tough under almost any circumstances-- unless the aisle person is pretty much in take-off position.
Random stuff: (more to be added later, I'm sure)
•Color of the seat covering; better in person than in those photos. I might have still liked navy blue but I can see why this might have been better. Mainly, who cares? (Except for those here who seem obsessed with cabin "fashion.")
•Interlocking trays; I kinda thought this was a gimmick, but in actuality they re very practical and useful. Dining, computing, etc.-- you can pick one or the other or both. Big enough to eat off just one (kinda'.)
•Calf/foot space when in bed mode; IMHO not as closed in as the photos show-- depending on position (and no shoes I'd say is a must.) I'm leaving this item open as I personally didn't have a problem in this area but I think some will. Didn't compromise my comfort at all.
•Aisles are very tight making luggage time more chaotic than usual. Carts do make contact with aisle seats with some frequency-- but that may get better as the FA's get more experience with this config.
•Privacy dividers are very good. Drop-down armrest didn't do much for me.
•Seat in row 6 was already non-functional, they can't be too happy 'bout that (but these things happen, of course.)
•The automated announcement system was screwed up beyond belief.
•The cabin-wide IFE has nice, very clear LCD screens (bulkheads especially big) and a headphone jack in the console.
•The AVOD IFE unit (not present on my flights) does not "dock" in any meaningful way-- it just gets power from the 12v jack. So you won't be able to get airshow on it,
etc.
•The "cross aisle"-- a very narrow passageway that allows passengers on the non-lav side of J to get to the lav w/o going through the galley-- a big improvement.
(more to be added later)
My biggest concern was "can I sleep in these seats?" The answer for me is unequivocally yes. I'm a side-sleeper and very sensitive to the angle on some angled lie-flat seats (as mentioned above.) These seats succeed for me on this most important of all criteria. The relax positions are as expected-- excellent and very varied-- you could sit in this seat for days before you find your personal favorites.
Personally, I have no idea how much more space IB, CX, JL, LX have in front of each seat pair (if any-- I really don't know, but I feel like they do)- but having flown all of 'em-- subjectively it seems like noticeably less on these new AA seats. Some will feel "cramped" no doubt-- I honestly don't know how someone 6'5" or more might feel about the cramped-factor, but my intuition tells me it could be a problem. We'll see.
We've all known all along that in a vacuum there's a solution to this problem. Rip out a row and give each J-row an extra 6-10 inches of pitch. Never was gonna' happen, never will happen, but some will suggest this would have made this seat far more comfortable and desirable and, ultimately, more profitable due to same. In my view, the seat works as-is and this is a seat that most people will be pleased to pay for. I don't see people fleeing the other carriers in droves for it, but I do think AA has hit the mark. I think several sacrifices were made to produce a flat-as-possible, comfortable for sleeping, great-for-relaxing seats and personally, I think it's obvious that AA's IFP people had this "prime directive" in mind-- it must be comfortable for sleeping above all else. I agree with that approach and feel it has yielded excellent results.
Overall, I think AA has produced a winner. I don't have a single doubt in my mind that some, maybe even many, will not agree with some/most/all of the above (that's the beauty of our little community.) But it's my hope and expectation that the majority will find much to like in these seats-- most especially a comfortable sleeping position and very comfortable relaxing positions to supplement that.
BTW, the crew was mostly the same both ways and they were incredible-- fantastic crew! But the way back probably shouldn't count because by then they were convinced I worked for AA or Boeing, etc.-- no matter how many times I told 'em no.
There was a media event for the new seats at SJU so maybe this crew was hand-picked to some extent (that's just speculation), but they were one of the nicest, most attentive and service oriented crews I've ever had on any AA flight. I should write in to AA and tell them, but maybe this post will count as same 
.
Here's the tentative schedule for this aircraft next few days:
NOTE: this schedule can and will change-- do not make plans based on this info, you -will- end up disappointed when the scheduling changes.
00007/25 Dfw/ogg
0006/25 Ogg/dfw
0123/26 Dfw/hnl
0072/26 Hnl/ord
0217/27 Ord/ogg
0218/27 Ogg/ord
0073/28 Ord/hnl
0284/28 Hnl/lax
1364/29 Lax/ord
0042/29 Ord/cdg
0121/30JUL CDG/JFK
1635/31JUL JFK/SJU
1732/31JUL SJU/JFK
0120/31JUL JFK/CDG
In summary, I like this new seat very much and think American has done a very good job of putting together a seat that most people, I think, will be quite happy with.
Different people have different priorities and I don't have any problem envisioning that a certain % of people will not agree that this seat is what they hoped for. For me though, the seat exceeds in several ways what I expected-- but, of course, that's my expectations-- and that's a very, very individual thing, an absolute study in subjectivity.
One thing that IMHO is -not- subjective-- or at least is something that I feel 90%+ will agree on; this seat is a major, major improvement over the current J-seat. Now many would point out that those are mighty small shoes to fill, but, beyond that, this seat is unquestionably a huge leap forward in comfort. In my mind, there's really just no question about that.
When I tested an early prototype version of this seat, my impression was simple and to some extent, disturbing. While I found the seat very comfortable for relaxing, I did -not- enjoy the sleeping position(s). We were surveyed on this and several of the other testers seemed to have similar input-- "I can't really sleep well in this thing." Main problem; too much angle.
Happy to report what I think is the most important aspect of this post; I find the seat's sleeping positions to be quite comfortable. The feeling of "sleeping while sort of standing" that I felt in the test seat-- and to a slightly lesser degree Cathay's current J-seat (and LX even less so)-- is, from my initial encounter with this seat, not present. I didn't feel like I was sliding down the seat or that I essentially had to "brace" against the footrest extension in order to stay in the seat. JL and IB are my 2 favorite of the current generation of these kind of seats and while, for various reasons, I wouldn't put AA's NGBC seat quite in the league of those two it shares their most important characteristic-- I can sleep very comfortably in it.
The biggest potential problem with angled lie-flats, IME, is the sensation-- real or perceived-- that one has to struggle to stay in place and/or that one has to brace against the "step" extension of the footrest to keep from inching down in the seat. I just did not feel like the angle that is present in these AA seats was noticeable and/or detrimental compared to the way I always feel it in CX J.
The sleep position button seems to have more than one function in that if you hold it down in the sleep position it slightly alters the seating position. If I had to guess, it feels like one position has more thigh support (for back sleepers) and the other is more dead flat-- I assume for side sleepers-- where the extra support in the thigh area would actually be a downside. And a few subtle positions in between by holding the button down for a sec. Great feature and they should document it-- I don't think it's mentioned. BTW, you know that photo that shows that big drop-off by the calves? I have to take another look at that photo-- 'cause it really doesn't exist, IME-- or it does, but it doesn't feel the way it looks (if that makes any sense.) And, as some surmised, the angle of that photo makes the foot area appear to be smaller and more cramped than it is.
The seat is so adjustable that the number of relaxing positions is virtually infinite. I love that aspect of this seat-- little adjustments here and there and one can really find numerous very comfy positions. Very advanced in this area. The seat cushion is adjustable in addition to the other areas and that gives this seat a flexibility that I haven't encountered before in J.
Now the downsides; some that I feel are gonna' be universal complaints others that will be critical flaws to some but practically inconsequential to others.
The window seat. If you're in this seat and your neighbor is sleeping, eating or IFEing a relaxed position, you are -not- getting out without a degree of cooperation on his/her part. The pitch of these seats feels more like domestic 762 J than current 763 (or even 777) J. You do however "own" all your space for the duration of the flight-- no one reclines into you and you don't recline into anyone else-- like all new generation J seats that I know of. A big plus in my book.
But, again, the window seat? Not for me. I love sitting in the window but unless I have an empty seat next to me (which I did on the way down) the window seat will not work for me-- pretty much ever. Then again, I don't book windows on CX/LX/JL/IB either-- but this is a little more difficult than those, I think.
I'll miss you, window seat, we had some good times.
Problem compounded by the location of the 12v socket and I suppose the headphone cord to AVOD IFE unit when present and loaded into the seatback.
I'm wondering if for very little cost, if AA could add an auxiliary 12v plug in the console behind each seat. It's really only about 4 inches from he existing 12v and I think it's just empty housing there (or it appears that way.)
I think AA should seriously consider doing this-- I know everything costs $$-- and more $$ than would be apparent-- but in my little mind, I think this would be very inexpensive to do and would add greatly to the convenience of those who use in-seat power.
The center section feels more roomy for a variety of reasons-- especially compared to the window-- and you don't have to mount-- or be mounted by-- anyone to get out. I think windows usually fill up first so I don't anticipate a problem getting a seats in the center, where I am now and where I will always be unless I can get an empty next to me--then the window section is great. The center bins are nowhere near as big as I thought they would be so that could be a bit of a problem boarding late w/ large carry-on in a full cabin.
The center console extends very far forward so combined with tray usage, etc. getting out of your window seat can be tough under almost any circumstances-- unless the aisle person is pretty much in take-off position.
Random stuff: (more to be added later, I'm sure)
•Color of the seat covering; better in person than in those photos. I might have still liked navy blue but I can see why this might have been better. Mainly, who cares? (Except for those here who seem obsessed with cabin "fashion.")
•Interlocking trays; I kinda thought this was a gimmick, but in actuality they re very practical and useful. Dining, computing, etc.-- you can pick one or the other or both. Big enough to eat off just one (kinda'.)
•Calf/foot space when in bed mode; IMHO not as closed in as the photos show-- depending on position (and no shoes I'd say is a must.) I'm leaving this item open as I personally didn't have a problem in this area but I think some will. Didn't compromise my comfort at all.
•Aisles are very tight making luggage time more chaotic than usual. Carts do make contact with aisle seats with some frequency-- but that may get better as the FA's get more experience with this config.
•Privacy dividers are very good. Drop-down armrest didn't do much for me.
•Seat in row 6 was already non-functional, they can't be too happy 'bout that (but these things happen, of course.)
•The automated announcement system was screwed up beyond belief.
•The cabin-wide IFE has nice, very clear LCD screens (bulkheads especially big) and a headphone jack in the console.
•The AVOD IFE unit (not present on my flights) does not "dock" in any meaningful way-- it just gets power from the 12v jack. So you won't be able to get airshow on it,
etc.
•The "cross aisle"-- a very narrow passageway that allows passengers on the non-lav side of J to get to the lav w/o going through the galley-- a big improvement.
(more to be added later)
My biggest concern was "can I sleep in these seats?" The answer for me is unequivocally yes. I'm a side-sleeper and very sensitive to the angle on some angled lie-flat seats (as mentioned above.) These seats succeed for me on this most important of all criteria. The relax positions are as expected-- excellent and very varied-- you could sit in this seat for days before you find your personal favorites.
Personally, I have no idea how much more space IB, CX, JL, LX have in front of each seat pair (if any-- I really don't know, but I feel like they do)- but having flown all of 'em-- subjectively it seems like noticeably less on these new AA seats. Some will feel "cramped" no doubt-- I honestly don't know how someone 6'5" or more might feel about the cramped-factor, but my intuition tells me it could be a problem. We'll see.
We've all known all along that in a vacuum there's a solution to this problem. Rip out a row and give each J-row an extra 6-10 inches of pitch. Never was gonna' happen, never will happen, but some will suggest this would have made this seat far more comfortable and desirable and, ultimately, more profitable due to same. In my view, the seat works as-is and this is a seat that most people will be pleased to pay for. I don't see people fleeing the other carriers in droves for it, but I do think AA has hit the mark. I think several sacrifices were made to produce a flat-as-possible, comfortable for sleeping, great-for-relaxing seats and personally, I think it's obvious that AA's IFP people had this "prime directive" in mind-- it must be comfortable for sleeping above all else. I agree with that approach and feel it has yielded excellent results.
Overall, I think AA has produced a winner. I don't have a single doubt in my mind that some, maybe even many, will not agree with some/most/all of the above (that's the beauty of our little community.) But it's my hope and expectation that the majority will find much to like in these seats-- most especially a comfortable sleeping position and very comfortable relaxing positions to supplement that.
BTW, the crew was mostly the same both ways and they were incredible-- fantastic crew! But the way back probably shouldn't count because by then they were convinced I worked for AA or Boeing, etc.-- no matter how many times I told 'em no.
There was a media event for the new seats at SJU so maybe this crew was hand-picked to some extent (that's just speculation), but they were one of the nicest, most attentive and service oriented crews I've ever had on any AA flight. I should write in to AA and tell them, but maybe this post will count as same .Here's the tentative schedule for this aircraft next few days:
NOTE: this schedule can and will change-- do not make plans based on this info, you -will- end up disappointed when the scheduling changes.
00007/25 Dfw/ogg
0006/25 Ogg/dfw
0123/26 Dfw/hnl
0072/26 Hnl/ord
0217/27 Ord/ogg
0218/27 Ogg/ord
0073/28 Ord/hnl
0284/28 Hnl/lax
1364/29 Lax/ord
0042/29 Ord/cdg
0121/30JUL CDG/JFK
1635/31JUL JFK/SJU
1732/31JUL SJU/JFK
0120/31JUL JFK/CDG
Last edited by JonNYC; Jul 26, 2006 at 8:12 pm
Jul 20, 2006, 5:59 pm
#2
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Very informative review. Thanks!
Jul 20, 2006, 6:11 pm
#3
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Thanks JonNYC for taking one for the FT team. Given your BIS experience on competitive seats and your critical eye this review has lots of credibility. Nice to see that AA might have a future in the premium segment and that they might finally be ending their terrible strategy of catering to the trailer park set.
Last edited by hillrider; Jul 20, 2006 at 7:05 pm
Jul 20, 2006, 6:17 pm
#4
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Originally Posted by hillrider
Thanks JonNYC for taking one for the FT team. Given your BIS experience on conpetitive seats and your critical eye this review has lots of credibility. Nice to see that AA might have a future in the premium segment and that they might finally be ending their terrible strategy of catering to the trailer park set.
Jul 20, 2006, 6:22 pm
#5
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Excellent and very descriptive report! You resolved a lot of the questions many of us have been speculating about.
Did you get to take any pics?
Did you get to take any pics?
Jul 20, 2006, 6:23 pm
#6
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Real perspective from a real traveler...
Thanks! ^
Jul 20, 2006, 6:30 pm
#7
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Thanks for a very thorough and informative review! ^
I'm gonna need to fly in this seat soon!
I'm gonna need to fly in this seat soon!
Jul 20, 2006, 6:39 pm
#8
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Originally Posted by ASULawFlyer
Excellent and very descriptive report! You resolved a lot of the questions many of us have been speculating about.
Did you get to take any pics?
Did you get to take any pics?
Jul 20, 2006, 6:49 pm
#9
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JonNYC
How does the angle (sleep position) and pitch/foot area compare with the QF J Skybed? You provided comparison with IB, CX, LX but not QF.
How does the angle (sleep position) and pitch/foot area compare with the QF J Skybed? You provided comparison with IB, CX, LX but not QF.
Jul 20, 2006, 6:51 pm
#10
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As expected, seems that the window seats are a no-no. Will seatguru.com have the config with all window seats in yellow, I wonder?
Jul 20, 2006, 6:54 pm
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Excellent review! I was waiting for a post just like this. Thanks Jon! ^
-FlyerBeek
-FlyerBeek
Jul 20, 2006, 6:56 pm
#12
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Originally Posted by alect
JonNYC
How does the angle (sleep position) and pitch/foot area compare with the QF J Skybed? You provided comparison with IB, CX, LX but not QF.
How does the angle (sleep position) and pitch/foot area compare with the QF J Skybed? You provided comparison with IB, CX, LX but not QF.
I think "by the numbers" AA's new J-seat has about as small an incline as just about any of 'em (that have an incline, of course.) I hate that feeling of practically having to use the metal "step" to constantly boost oneself back up the "slide" if ya' know what I mean-- and, in my limited experience today, I didn't get that sensation at all. ^
Jul 20, 2006, 6:58 pm
#13
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Originally Posted by JonNYC
Also, although never at full fare, it's apt to note that well over 70% of my flying is in international F/J class-- on some of the great carriers-- BA, CX, QF, LA, JL-- so hopefully even my criticisms will actually turn out to be nit-picky in the eyes of many once they try it.
Has the roll-out of the new seats throught the fleet been clearly documented?
How do we know whether a particular flight will have new or old?
Jul 20, 2006, 6:59 pm
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Originally Posted by FlyerBeek
Excellent review! I was waiting for a post just like this. Thanks Jon! ^
We'll have to wait to hear from out first supersized (vertically or horizontally) member to see how they feel.
Jul 20, 2006, 7:00 pm
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Jon,
My sincere thanks for the excellent detail you have provided.
Looking forward to many flights in the new seat...
My sincere thanks for the excellent detail you have provided.
Looking forward to many flights in the new seat...