best not to misplace your plane tix
Oct 9, 2006, 11:41 pm
#1
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best not to misplace your plane tix
Long ago, I learned that losing a paper ticket was not a pleasent experience (you have to wait at least 18 months in order to refund/reissue).
But, I figured all of those problems would have disappeared by the time the e-ticket revolution hit China. Well, etix are here to stay, but I'm loath to point out that the refund process --while faster-- is no less annoying.
The key piece to the puzzle is that the receipt type thing they give you (not a 发票 btw) is actually kind of important.
So here's my story (perhaps "fable" is a more fitting term).
2 weeks ago, I bought a short stack of full fare etix (these were for the holiday so most flights were on the expensive side anyway PLUS I wanted the flexibility and liquidation opportunities that full fare tix afford).
Shortly after my purchase, I managed to leave all of my itin receipts at a restaurant.
The next day, I called my TA to request duplicates faxed/emailed to me. "No dice," she said; "you only get one." She then proceeded to read me all of my flight times and numbers, which I jotted down on a notepad.
In fact, just like elsewhere, this is all one needs to check in and get off the ground.
But, once I got to Wuhan, I learned that the friend who was supposed to meet me in Chengdu the next day had canceled so I decided to make an early return to Beijing.
So, I called CZ to cancel. They told me that without the piece of paper, they couldn't even cancel my seat, let alone issue a refund. What's more, in spite of the fact that my Wuhan-Chengdu ticket was more expensive than Wuhan-Beijing, I had no choice but to buy a new ticket (i.e. no way to apply the value towards my purchase). Second, if I didn't cancel within 24 hours of fight time, I'd be hit with a 5% penalty. The penalty was a foregone conclusion, of course, because my travel agent decided to take last week off.
My remaining 3 tickets suffered the same fate (because there was no way to cancel them), but at least CA didn't nail me with the 5%.
So, when my TA finally openned on Sunday, I informed her that I'd like to get my money back. Obviously forgetful of our prior conversation, she said, "Sure, just bring us your receipts."
Upon reminding her of the fact that I no longer had them, she basically told me to pound sand. At that point, I started to get angry and told her to start acting like on my behalf or I would simply dispute the credit card charge (messy since I had already flown one segment). In particular, I asked her to call the airlines for me, ask them how to proceed, and call me back.
She never called me back so I called her and, again, she told me, "退不了!” Furthermore, there was nothing she could do because my tickets were no longer in the system.
So, I spent the next 2 hours on the phone with CZ and CA. In the end both agreed to call my TA and educate her as to their formalities. So today, I went in there with my passport and filled out a barage of forms and was told to expect a resolution within 3-6 months.
The morale to my story is to hang onto those pieces of paper, even if they look unimportant and/or take up extra space in your wallet.
But, I figured all of those problems would have disappeared by the time the e-ticket revolution hit China. Well, etix are here to stay, but I'm loath to point out that the refund process --while faster-- is no less annoying.
The key piece to the puzzle is that the receipt type thing they give you (not a 发票 btw) is actually kind of important.
So here's my story (perhaps "fable" is a more fitting term).
2 weeks ago, I bought a short stack of full fare etix (these were for the holiday so most flights were on the expensive side anyway PLUS I wanted the flexibility and liquidation opportunities that full fare tix afford).
Shortly after my purchase, I managed to leave all of my itin receipts at a restaurant.
The next day, I called my TA to request duplicates faxed/emailed to me. "No dice," she said; "you only get one." She then proceeded to read me all of my flight times and numbers, which I jotted down on a notepad.
In fact, just like elsewhere, this is all one needs to check in and get off the ground.
But, once I got to Wuhan, I learned that the friend who was supposed to meet me in Chengdu the next day had canceled so I decided to make an early return to Beijing.
So, I called CZ to cancel. They told me that without the piece of paper, they couldn't even cancel my seat, let alone issue a refund. What's more, in spite of the fact that my Wuhan-Chengdu ticket was more expensive than Wuhan-Beijing, I had no choice but to buy a new ticket (i.e. no way to apply the value towards my purchase). Second, if I didn't cancel within 24 hours of fight time, I'd be hit with a 5% penalty. The penalty was a foregone conclusion, of course, because my travel agent decided to take last week off.
My remaining 3 tickets suffered the same fate (because there was no way to cancel them), but at least CA didn't nail me with the 5%.
So, when my TA finally openned on Sunday, I informed her that I'd like to get my money back. Obviously forgetful of our prior conversation, she said, "Sure, just bring us your receipts."
Upon reminding her of the fact that I no longer had them, she basically told me to pound sand. At that point, I started to get angry and told her to start acting like on my behalf or I would simply dispute the credit card charge (messy since I had already flown one segment). In particular, I asked her to call the airlines for me, ask them how to proceed, and call me back.
She never called me back so I called her and, again, she told me, "退不了!” Furthermore, there was nothing she could do because my tickets were no longer in the system.
So, I spent the next 2 hours on the phone with CZ and CA. In the end both agreed to call my TA and educate her as to their formalities. So today, I went in there with my passport and filled out a barage of forms and was told to expect a resolution within 3-6 months.
The morale to my story is to hang onto those pieces of paper, even if they look unimportant and/or take up extra space in your wallet.
Oct 10, 2006, 8:13 pm
#2
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Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 10,206
Not surprised at all, only in China would "ticketless travel" require you to actually have a "ticket" (or at least a receipt) to process something totally electronic. I always ask for the paper tickets as I like to have the fa piao part.
Almost as stupid as having the person who chops your air ticket with the "airport security stamp" and verifys your identity on international flights stationed 20 feet after the immigration/passport stamping desk. I always feel like asking, "uh, don't you think the passport guy would have caught on if it wasn't really me?"
Almost as stupid as having the person who chops your air ticket with the "airport security stamp" and verifys your identity on international flights stationed 20 feet after the immigration/passport stamping desk. I always feel like asking, "uh, don't you think the passport guy would have caught on if it wasn't really me?"
Oct 10, 2006, 10:22 pm
#3
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: BWI
Programs: LH M&M, CX MPC Green
Posts: 1,757
A reciept and a fa piao is everything in this country where I had to pay my school and dorm fees (altogether 3000USD) in cash. As I paid I noticed they had a chest (much like a treasure chest you read/see in pirate stories) full of stacks of 100 RMB notes from others who had paid.
Oct 11, 2006, 3:25 am
#4
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 80
I don't think there is real e-ticket system in China, cuz no perfect bank system support, and lack of flowing connection among sections. Once I tried to get a e-ticket from Spring Airline website, when I was ready to pay online I was required to input a transaction No., I don't understand what's it, then I had to go a bank to ask in person then I know I have to go to a bank in Xujiahui to get the transaction No. with my card. Jesus, I'm living in Pudong, I need to go to Puxi to get the transaction No. to get my E-ticket, I'd better buy a paper tickect at the agent's office near my place. When I went to the Spring Airline office near my place to buy a e-ticket (the cost is cheaper than paper ticket), I also got a paper to present it, the only comfort thing with the paper e-ticket is to check-in at HQ airport, it's easier to use the aoto check-in machine to fulfil without waiting in the long line.
Oct 11, 2006, 4:23 am
#6
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the saga continues
This morning my travel agent called me to inform me that I would have wait 13 months for a refund (as opposed to the 3 months she thought would be the case yesterday) from both airlines.
So, I called the airlines and proceeded to give each a piece of my mind. While they've made no commitments as of yet, CA appeared to get the picture by the time I was done with them. However, CZ stood firmly by its irrational policy. Hence, they earned themselves a letter.... and a determined moondog. Without further ado, following is the text of my letter:
So, I called the airlines and proceeded to give each a piece of my mind. While they've made no commitments as of yet, CA appeared to get the picture by the time I was done with them. However, CZ stood firmly by its irrational policy. Hence, they earned themselves a letter.... and a determined moondog. Without further ado, following is the text of my letter:
To Whom It May Concern:
I am writing in regards to ticket numbers <>. I am currently in the process of attempting to refund these (full fare) tickets and have encountered nothing but problems from your company. In particular, I am most troubled by CZ’s insistence that I need to wait 13 months in order to get my refund processed because I supposedly lost my ticket.
The thing is, the tickets in question are electronic tickets; in other words, they exist nowhere else aside from your own computer system. The only party that has the ability to “lose” e-tickets is your company.
I have been traveling almost exclusively on e-tickets for the better part of the past decade so I am quite familiar with the convenience they afford. Apparently, CZ is as well because I’m currently looking at your “人生得e我先行!” brochure; you know, the one with the worry-free business man in the fancy shoes. But, I digress.
Anyway, one of the nicest things about e-tickets (and the reason I prefer them to paper tickets) is that they don’t require me to haul around and look after physical documents. Functions such as check-in, seat selection, changes, cancellations, and refunds can all be accomplished by computer. You might want to reread the previous sentence because it applies to every single e-ticket I’ve ever used until I (unfortunately) chanced upon China Southern several weeks ago.
I now know that your company is different. In order to do anything with my e-ticket, I pretty much needed to have the original receipt that was issued by my travel agent. I couldn’t even cancel my flight without that little piece of paper (for the record, I attempted to cancel on 10/1 at the CZ ticket office in Beijing and again at the CZ ticket counter at Beijing Airport, and a 3rd time your counter in Wuhan airport), let alone get my money back.
Upon returning to Beijing, I initiated your cumbersome refund process. Even though I thought the paper work and multiple trips to my travel agency and your offices constituted a waste of time, I was not angry until I learned of your intentions to sit on my money for 13 months.
Regarding the 13 months, you cited: 1) this was necessary in order to make sure someone else doesn’t use my e-ticket; and 2) your policies are clear on this point. As for the first point, it would be impossible for someone to use my e-ticket because you already canceled it; my e-ticket no longer exists. As for the second point, I respect your right to make creative anti-customer policies. However, a policy that runs so counter to the norms of e-ticket world that I’ve come to love should have been disclosed to me prior to purchase.
In closing, I am not willing to give your company a 13-month, interest-free loan. So, please do whatever it takes to get me my money back in a timely manner (let’s say 30 days).
Thanks and regards,
moondog
I am writing in regards to ticket numbers <>. I am currently in the process of attempting to refund these (full fare) tickets and have encountered nothing but problems from your company. In particular, I am most troubled by CZ’s insistence that I need to wait 13 months in order to get my refund processed because I supposedly lost my ticket.
The thing is, the tickets in question are electronic tickets; in other words, they exist nowhere else aside from your own computer system. The only party that has the ability to “lose” e-tickets is your company.
I have been traveling almost exclusively on e-tickets for the better part of the past decade so I am quite familiar with the convenience they afford. Apparently, CZ is as well because I’m currently looking at your “人生得e我先行!” brochure; you know, the one with the worry-free business man in the fancy shoes. But, I digress.
Anyway, one of the nicest things about e-tickets (and the reason I prefer them to paper tickets) is that they don’t require me to haul around and look after physical documents. Functions such as check-in, seat selection, changes, cancellations, and refunds can all be accomplished by computer. You might want to reread the previous sentence because it applies to every single e-ticket I’ve ever used until I (unfortunately) chanced upon China Southern several weeks ago.
I now know that your company is different. In order to do anything with my e-ticket, I pretty much needed to have the original receipt that was issued by my travel agent. I couldn’t even cancel my flight without that little piece of paper (for the record, I attempted to cancel on 10/1 at the CZ ticket office in Beijing and again at the CZ ticket counter at Beijing Airport, and a 3rd time your counter in Wuhan airport), let alone get my money back.
Upon returning to Beijing, I initiated your cumbersome refund process. Even though I thought the paper work and multiple trips to my travel agency and your offices constituted a waste of time, I was not angry until I learned of your intentions to sit on my money for 13 months.
Regarding the 13 months, you cited: 1) this was necessary in order to make sure someone else doesn’t use my e-ticket; and 2) your policies are clear on this point. As for the first point, it would be impossible for someone to use my e-ticket because you already canceled it; my e-ticket no longer exists. As for the second point, I respect your right to make creative anti-customer policies. However, a policy that runs so counter to the norms of e-ticket world that I’ve come to love should have been disclosed to me prior to purchase.
In closing, I am not willing to give your company a 13-month, interest-free loan. So, please do whatever it takes to get me my money back in a timely manner (let’s say 30 days).
Thanks and regards,
moondog
Oct 11, 2006, 4:30 am
#7
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Join Date: Dec 2000
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Originally Posted by wideman
So if I'm in the US and buy an e-ticket (from elong) on the web, what will I need at the airport??
Oct 11, 2006, 5:11 am
#8
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 80
Originally Posted by moondog
This morning my travel agent called me to inform me that I would have wait 13 months for a refund (as opposed to the 3 months she thought would be the case yesterday) from both airlines.
So, I called the airlines and proceeded to give each a piece of my mind. While they've made no commitments as of yet, CA appeared to get the picture by the time I was done with them. However, CZ stood firmly by its irrational policy. Hence, they earned themselves a letter.... and a determined moondog. Without further ado, following is the text of my letter:
So, I called the airlines and proceeded to give each a piece of my mind. While they've made no commitments as of yet, CA appeared to get the picture by the time I was done with them. However, CZ stood firmly by its irrational policy. Hence, they earned themselves a letter.... and a determined moondog. Without further ado, following is the text of my letter:
Oct 11, 2006, 5:38 am
#9
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Join Date: Dec 2000
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Thanks for your comments.
The reason that I decided to write the letter was that I think I did a pretty good job communicating the same message to Air China over the phone. They: 1) understand me; and 2) realize that I'm not going to stop bothering them until they come around. In fact, as I suggested in the post in question, I am reasonably confident that they are going to get back to me with a timeline more to my liking tomorrow.
You know, that was my original approach. Today, while she was relaying the airlines' party line to me, I reminded her that a quick call to Amex would seemingly be in my best interest (i.e. file a dispute, which I'd have a very good chance of winning). But, then she started to get teary eyed so I retreated. (Though, I believe that if she were to play that card with the airlines, it would have a decent chance of yielding results).
While she certainly isn't the best travel agent and I can't completely forgive her for initial (and, to a lesser extent, continued) unwillingness to help, I am not heartless enough to cause her personal grief over several hundred dollars.
So, I'm going to continue to deal with the airlines myself (my tickets are well documented now) and bother her only when I need to. I realize that my letter is unlikely to yield results in the short-run, but I am prepared to continue to follow up and move progressively higher up the chain of command until I get a better answer. BTW, I did the same with Philippine Airlines 2 or 3 years ago and they eventually broke down.
With any luck, in addition to getting a speedier recovery, I am hopeful that my complaints might actually make a difference in the end (those guys probably don't encounter too many people that are willing to waste so much time on such a small amount of money, but the way I see it, I'll just tap into my FT a bit, if need be).
As you initmated, it really is a ridiculous system and someone, the idiotic aspects of which need to be brought to their attention. As I mentioned in my letter, the one-year hold bit makes some sense insofar as paper tickets are concerned because they are valid for one year from the date of issue. However, telling me to wait a year to refund a ticket that no longer exists is assinine.
Originally Posted by shmj
I don't think the full content letter will work a little, I even doubt if there is anybody in above 2 airlines will review it carefully.
Stick with your travel agent and press them to solve the problem.
While she certainly isn't the best travel agent and I can't completely forgive her for initial (and, to a lesser extent, continued) unwillingness to help, I am not heartless enough to cause her personal grief over several hundred dollars.
So, I'm going to continue to deal with the airlines myself (my tickets are well documented now) and bother her only when I need to. I realize that my letter is unlikely to yield results in the short-run, but I am prepared to continue to follow up and move progressively higher up the chain of command until I get a better answer. BTW, I did the same with Philippine Airlines 2 or 3 years ago and they eventually broke down.
With any luck, in addition to getting a speedier recovery, I am hopeful that my complaints might actually make a difference in the end (those guys probably don't encounter too many people that are willing to waste so much time on such a small amount of money, but the way I see it, I'll just tap into my FT a bit, if need be).
As you initmated, it really is a ridiculous system and someone, the idiotic aspects of which need to be brought to their attention. As I mentioned in my letter, the one-year hold bit makes some sense insofar as paper tickets are concerned because they are valid for one year from the date of issue. However, telling me to wait a year to refund a ticket that no longer exists is assinine.
Oct 11, 2006, 6:11 am
#10
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 1,762
It's a nice letter, and I'm sure they'll get the gist your're not a happy chap and would like a refund - but beyond that I'd be surprised if they understand it.
I fear that you'll get a letter a of mangled Chinglish explaining (badly) the 'procedures'.
I fear that you'll get a letter a of mangled Chinglish explaining (badly) the 'procedures'.
Oct 11, 2006, 6:23 am
#11
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 80
Originally Posted by moondog
Thanks for your comments..
Originally Posted by moondog
The reason that I decided to write the letter was that I think I did a pretty good job communicating the same message to Air China over the phone. They: 1) understand me; and 2) realize that I'm not going to stop bothering them until they come around. In fact, as I suggested in the post in question, I am reasonably confident that they are going to get back to me with a timeline more to my liking tomorrow.
Originally Posted by moondog
You know, that was my original approach. Today, while she was relaying the airlines' party line to me, I reminded her that a quick call to Amex would seemingly be in my best interest (i.e. file a dispute, which I'd have a very good chance of winning). But, then she started to get teary eyed so I retreated. (Though, I believe that if she were to play that card with the airlines, it would have a decent chance of yielding results).
While she certainly isn't the best travel agent and I can't completely forgive her for initial (and, to a lesser extent, continued) unwillingness to help, I am not heartless enough to cause her personal grief over several hundred dollars.
So, I'm going to continue to deal with the airlines myself (my tickets are well documented now) and bother her only when I need to. I realize that my letter is unlikely to yield results in the short-run, but I am prepared to continue to follow up and move progressively higher up the chain of command until I get a better answer. BTW, I did the same with Philippine Airlines 2 or 3 years ago and they eventually broke down.
With any luck, in addition to getting a speedier recovery, I am hopeful that my complaints might actually make a difference in the end (those guys probably don't encounter too many people that are willing to waste so much time on such a small amount of money, but the way I see it, I'll just tap into my FT a bit, if need be).
As you initmated, it really is a ridiculous system and someone, the idiotic aspects of which need to be brought to their attention. As I mentioned in my letter, the one-year hold bit makes some sense insofar as paper tickets are concerned because they are valid for one year from the date of issue. However, telling me to wait a year to refund a ticket that no longer exists is assinine.
While she certainly isn't the best travel agent and I can't completely forgive her for initial (and, to a lesser extent, continued) unwillingness to help, I am not heartless enough to cause her personal grief over several hundred dollars.
So, I'm going to continue to deal with the airlines myself (my tickets are well documented now) and bother her only when I need to. I realize that my letter is unlikely to yield results in the short-run, but I am prepared to continue to follow up and move progressively higher up the chain of command until I get a better answer. BTW, I did the same with Philippine Airlines 2 or 3 years ago and they eventually broke down.
With any luck, in addition to getting a speedier recovery, I am hopeful that my complaints might actually make a difference in the end (those guys probably don't encounter too many people that are willing to waste so much time on such a small amount of money, but the way I see it, I'll just tap into my FT a bit, if need be).
As you initmated, it really is a ridiculous system and someone, the idiotic aspects of which need to be brought to their attention. As I mentioned in my letter, the one-year hold bit makes some sense insofar as paper tickets are concerned because they are valid for one year from the date of issue. However, telling me to wait a year to refund a ticket that no longer exists is assinine.
Oct 11, 2006, 7:24 am
#12
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Originally Posted by shmj
Did you get the name of the one who talked with you on phone? Did he promise to sovle the problem?
Why need to stick with your travel agent? First she is a Chinese, it's easier for her to communicate with the persons in the airline companies. Second they should be more familiar with the everything about the airlines. I don't understand why the TA girl would be acting teary, at this time you should ask her to help you to solve the problem as you didn't ask her to take the loss. At least she can help to find which department or which person in the airlines has the right to refund the money to you. Do not believe 13 months or 3 months getting refund, it's just an excuse.
At the same time, your are underestimating me. While I might not be native Chinese, I can raise my voice in Mandarin just as effectively as I can in English (but, I do like to try to use as much English as possible because it keeps them on their toes). I also believe that I am better at navigating bureaucracies than the travel agent. Plus, I have a few aces up my sleeve that I plan to play, as needed, over the course of the next weeks (and, months). I'll keep you guys posted. Cheers, E!
Oct 11, 2006, 9:09 am
#13
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Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 10,206
Originally Posted by moondog
Yes, that would be Ms. 9305. Mr. 119 is also a reasonable fellow.
I think you are overestimating her. To give you an example of her negotiating style, just as I had one of the CZ ladies up against the ropes, I handed her the phone to her and ended the call after giving Ms. CZ her email address so she could send over a copy of the policy. All of her phone calls adhere to this same -- "they said, 'no'" -- pattern. It's possible that if I really did threaten to bring in Amex even after she started to tear up, that her tune might change, but I have my doubts.
At the same time, your are underestimating me. While I might not be native Chinese, I can raise my voice in Mandarin just as effectively as I can in English (but, I do like to try to use as much English as possible because it keeps them on their toes). I also believe that I am better at navigating bureaucracies than the travel agent. Plus, I have a few aces up my sleeve that I plan to play, as needed, over the course of the next weeks (and, months). I'll keep you guys posted. Cheers, E!
I think you are overestimating her. To give you an example of her negotiating style, just as I had one of the CZ ladies up against the ropes, I handed her the phone to her and ended the call after giving Ms. CZ her email address so she could send over a copy of the policy. All of her phone calls adhere to this same -- "they said, 'no'" -- pattern. It's possible that if I really did threaten to bring in Amex even after she started to tear up, that her tune might change, but I have my doubts.
At the same time, your are underestimating me. While I might not be native Chinese, I can raise my voice in Mandarin just as effectively as I can in English (but, I do like to try to use as much English as possible because it keeps them on their toes). I also believe that I am better at navigating bureaucracies than the travel agent. Plus, I have a few aces up my sleeve that I plan to play, as needed, over the course of the next weeks (and, months). I'll keep you guys posted. Cheers, E!
I'd let her cry and then get what I want. There are only about 100,000 travel agents in Beijing, I'm sure you can find someone with fuwu on the same level as this one. I may be a bigger a****le than you but I'd go to the credit card and dispute it right away.
Oct 11, 2006, 10:41 am
#14
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Originally Posted by travelinmanS
It may be different in your circumstances but I've always found that people tearing up in China are ALWAYS crying crocodile tears...always.
I'd let her cry and then get what I want. There are only about 100,000 travel agents in Beijing, I'm sure you can find someone with fuwu on the same level as this one. I may be a bigger a****le than you but I'd go to the credit card and dispute it right away.
I'd let her cry and then get what I want. There are only about 100,000 travel agents in Beijing, I'm sure you can find someone with fuwu on the same level as this one. I may be a bigger a****le than you but I'd go to the credit card and dispute it right away.
....a microcosm of the current NK situation.
Oct 12, 2006, 5:58 am
#15
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 80
Originally Posted by moondog
Yes, that would be Ms. 9305. Mr. 119 is also a reasonable fellow.!
Originally Posted by moondog
I think you are overestimating her. To give you an example of her negotiating style, just as I had one of the CZ ladies up against the ropes, I handed her the phone to her and ended the call after giving Ms. CZ her email address so she could send over a copy of the policy. All of her phone calls adhere to this same -- "they said, 'no'" -- pattern. It's possible that if I really did threaten to bring in Amex even after she started to tear up, that her tune might change, but I have my doubts.
At the same time, your are underestimating me. While I might not be native Chinese, I can raise my voice in Mandarin just as effectively as I can in English (but, I do like to try to use as much English as possible because it keeps them on their toes). I also believe that I am better at navigating bureaucracies than the travel agent. Plus, I have a few aces up my sleeve that I plan to play, as needed, over the course of the next weeks (and, months). I'll keep you guys posted. Cheers, E!
At the same time, your are underestimating me. While I might not be native Chinese, I can raise my voice in Mandarin just as effectively as I can in English (but, I do like to try to use as much English as possible because it keeps them on their toes). I also believe that I am better at navigating bureaucracies than the travel agent. Plus, I have a few aces up my sleeve that I plan to play, as needed, over the course of the next weeks (and, months). I'll keep you guys posted. Cheers, E!
Good luck!