Air France, KLM and Alitalia : the saga 2000 - 20?? [consolidated thread]
Apr 29, 2000, 12:14 am
#1
Original Poster
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: Oxford, UK CO Gold, AS MVP, KL RW and AZ nothing, plus Airmiles collector !! With the AZ / KL split now who knows ?
Posts: 163
Air France, KLM and Alitalia : the saga 2000 - 20?? [consolidated thread]
By ELLEN KNICKMEYER
Associated Press Writer
ROME (AP) -- Italy's loyalty to a hugely unpopular airport that's up to a $100 cab ride outside Milan appears to have cost its national carrier a vital partnership, leaving leaders fretting about the future of the Malpensa airport and Alitalia itself.
Italian politicians hoped to talk KLM Royal Dutch Airlines out of its announced decision Friday to immediately sever its less-than 2-year-old partnership with Alitalia.
But KLM's chief was quoted as putting blame squarely on the Italian government -- and the opposition demanded government and airline executives come before Parliament to explain.
``The government's bad choices have created a situation that risks creating problems for the very survival of Alitalia,'' lawmakers of the opposition National Alliance said in a statement.
KLM abruptly killed its deal with Alitalia late Friday, saying the venture had become ``an unacceptable business risk that could jeopardize its financial position.''
``The alliance with Alitalia is not viable, considering the continuing uncertainty, mainly with regard to the future of Malpensa and the proposed privatization of Alitalia,'' KLM said.
It demanded $91 million in compensation for the failed venture.
KLM entered the deal looking to Malpensa as a second hub in Europe. But for years Malpensa has been plagued with problems, including a poor on-time record and long waits for baggage.
Trying to force Malpensa into use, Italian Transport Minister Pierluigi Bersani in March ordered airlines to switch most flights from Linate, six miles from downtown Milan, to Malpensa, 33 miles from Italy's financial capital. The government said the move was essential to easing congestion at Linate.
But foreign airlines -- including British Airways, Lufthansa and Air France -- complained that the move would unfairly favor Alitalia and filed a complaint with the European Commission.
Alitalia said Friday it still was waiting to learn details of KLM's complaints. In advance of an explanation, it defended both the pace of development at Malpensa and of privatization of the air carrier.
KLM Chief Executive Officer Leo van Wijk, in an interview with Italy's ANSA news service, was quoted as saying the responsibility ``clearly is the Italian government's.''
``If this is definitive, there go our chances of developing our company into a top player in European air transport,'' said Ernesto Stajono, president of the transport commission of Parliament's lower house.
The financial ramifications for Alitalia were not immediately clear. But Finance Minister Ottaviano del Turco said Italy would have to move quickly to ``remedy the situation, either by re-establishing the relationship or by finding another partner for our national carrier.''
Associated Press Writer
ROME (AP) -- Italy's loyalty to a hugely unpopular airport that's up to a $100 cab ride outside Milan appears to have cost its national carrier a vital partnership, leaving leaders fretting about the future of the Malpensa airport and Alitalia itself.
Italian politicians hoped to talk KLM Royal Dutch Airlines out of its announced decision Friday to immediately sever its less-than 2-year-old partnership with Alitalia.
But KLM's chief was quoted as putting blame squarely on the Italian government -- and the opposition demanded government and airline executives come before Parliament to explain.
``The government's bad choices have created a situation that risks creating problems for the very survival of Alitalia,'' lawmakers of the opposition National Alliance said in a statement.
KLM abruptly killed its deal with Alitalia late Friday, saying the venture had become ``an unacceptable business risk that could jeopardize its financial position.''
``The alliance with Alitalia is not viable, considering the continuing uncertainty, mainly with regard to the future of Malpensa and the proposed privatization of Alitalia,'' KLM said.
It demanded $91 million in compensation for the failed venture.
KLM entered the deal looking to Malpensa as a second hub in Europe. But for years Malpensa has been plagued with problems, including a poor on-time record and long waits for baggage.
Trying to force Malpensa into use, Italian Transport Minister Pierluigi Bersani in March ordered airlines to switch most flights from Linate, six miles from downtown Milan, to Malpensa, 33 miles from Italy's financial capital. The government said the move was essential to easing congestion at Linate.
But foreign airlines -- including British Airways, Lufthansa and Air France -- complained that the move would unfairly favor Alitalia and filed a complaint with the European Commission.
Alitalia said Friday it still was waiting to learn details of KLM's complaints. In advance of an explanation, it defended both the pace of development at Malpensa and of privatization of the air carrier.
KLM Chief Executive Officer Leo van Wijk, in an interview with Italy's ANSA news service, was quoted as saying the responsibility ``clearly is the Italian government's.''
``If this is definitive, there go our chances of developing our company into a top player in European air transport,'' said Ernesto Stajono, president of the transport commission of Parliament's lower house.
The financial ramifications for Alitalia were not immediately clear. But Finance Minister Ottaviano del Turco said Italy would have to move quickly to ``remedy the situation, either by re-establishing the relationship or by finding another partner for our national carrier.''
Last edited by JOUY31; Aug 20, 2007 at 4:34 am Reason: title edit
May 5, 2000, 7:45 pm
#3
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: San Francisco, CA
Programs: NW Platinum Elite, United PE, Marriott Platinum
Posts: 399
The good thing about this 'divorce' is that the inflight movies will now be translated back in english spoken movies in stead of italian. I really hated this on my last flight!
If it's up to me they enter the One World alliance with BA
BA Fan
[This message has been edited by BA Fan (edited 05-06-2000).]
If it's up to me they enter the One World alliance with BA
BA Fan
[This message has been edited by BA Fan (edited 05-06-2000).]
May 6, 2000, 12:54 am
#4
Join Date: Jan 1999
Posts: 3,065
BA Fan: That isn't funny 
The thought of down-market KLM infiltrating the glorified sanctum that is OneWorld sends a shiver down my spine.
I think KLM would be better off playing with Air France (airlines with shabby service should stick together!) and OW can open the door to lovely Alitalia.
Nick
[This message has been edited by Merry (edited 05-06-2000).]
The thought of down-market KLM infiltrating the glorified sanctum that is OneWorld sends a shiver down my spine.I think KLM would be better off playing with Air France (airlines with shabby service should stick together!) and OW can open the door to lovely Alitalia.
Nick
[This message has been edited by Merry (edited 05-06-2000).]
May 6, 2000, 2:22 pm
#5
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: San Francisco, CA
Programs: NW Platinum Elite, United PE, Marriott Platinum
Posts: 399
Nick,
I was hoping that OW would show KLM what customer service means. I'm glad you brought up this point because I never intended to suggest that KLM can compare themselves (yet) with the service of for example BA.
I haven't flown AlItalia so I cannot judge about their service levels.
BA Fan
I was hoping that OW would show KLM what customer service means. I'm glad you brought up this point because I never intended to suggest that KLM can compare themselves (yet) with the service of for example BA.
I haven't flown AlItalia so I cannot judge about their service levels.
BA Fan
May 12, 2000, 4:39 pm
#6
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: South Coast, UK
Programs: Lifetime Platinum
Posts: 2,069
I suppose you get what you pay for.....just back from Minneapolis @ Ł285 with KLM. They got me there and back safely...food so,so, a gorgeous flight attendant, (female), upgraded with my Royal card, and points as well......what more could you want?
May 13, 2000, 1:56 am
#7
Join Date: Jan 1999
Posts: 3,065
Mike:
On time?
The cabin cramped?
Any free seats?
Nice Departure lounge?
Arrivals lounge?
Ok, I accept they are good at one thing. KLM are cheap! As i have consistently said, they are a discount carrier, pretending not to be.
Glad they got you there and back anyway
Nick
On time?
The cabin cramped?
Any free seats?
Nice Departure lounge?
Arrivals lounge?
Ok, I accept they are good at one thing. KLM are cheap! As i have consistently said, they are a discount carrier, pretending not to be.
Glad they got you there and back anyway
Nick
May 14, 2000, 11:22 am
#8
Original Poster
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: Oxford, UK CO Gold, AS MVP, KL RW and AZ nothing, plus Airmiles collector !! With the AZ / KL split now who knows ?
Posts: 163
According to today's yahoo airline news...
BA and KLM are in talks - BA is interested in KLM's relationships with CO+NW
BA and KLM are in talks - BA is interested in KLM's relationships with CO+NW
May 16, 2000, 12:27 pm
#9
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Edinburgh
Programs: Still a lowly Blue with BA but inching towards Bronze. Managed to get to KLM Silver!
Posts: 4,308
Merry
Cramped Cabin?- The new World Business Class is very similar to the outgoing Club World seat. Comfy enough for me and if I purchase a consolidated ticket it's less than half the cost of BA. Keeps our accountants happy and helps reduce the (much threatened) introduction of an "Economy Only" policy.
Nice Departure Lounge?- The new RoyalWing lounge at Schipol is much improved.
Arrivals Lounge? - Showers in the RoyalWing lounge are enough for me until I get home.
On Time? - Now that the hassle at AMS is sorted most of my flights (ex EDI, ex AMS) have been on-time.
Free seats? - Every airline tries to fill their seats. KLM try to keep the middle seat empty in Economy when window or isle is occupied by a RW passenger.
KLM had a customer service disaster in 1998 and 1999 with a series of problems due to ATC restrictions at AMS and a disaterous migration from in-house to out-sourced Flying Dutchman programme. However, things have substantially improved.
I get far more recognition as a RoyalWing member than I ever did as BA Gold.
[This message has been edited by Gaza (edited 05-16-2000).]
[This message has been edited by Gaza (edited 05-16-2000).]
Cramped Cabin?- The new World Business Class is very similar to the outgoing Club World seat. Comfy enough for me and if I purchase a consolidated ticket it's less than half the cost of BA. Keeps our accountants happy and helps reduce the (much threatened) introduction of an "Economy Only" policy.
Nice Departure Lounge?- The new RoyalWing lounge at Schipol is much improved.
Arrivals Lounge? - Showers in the RoyalWing lounge are enough for me until I get home.
On Time? - Now that the hassle at AMS is sorted most of my flights (ex EDI, ex AMS) have been on-time.
Free seats? - Every airline tries to fill their seats. KLM try to keep the middle seat empty in Economy when window or isle is occupied by a RW passenger.
KLM had a customer service disaster in 1998 and 1999 with a series of problems due to ATC restrictions at AMS and a disaterous migration from in-house to out-sourced Flying Dutchman programme. However, things have substantially improved.
I get far more recognition as a RoyalWing member than I ever did as BA Gold.
[This message has been edited by Gaza (edited 05-16-2000).]
[This message has been edited by Gaza (edited 05-16-2000).]
May 16, 2000, 3:07 pm
#10
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Join Date: May 1999
Posts: 46,817
Regarding the BA-KLM talks mentioned above:
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/Forum15/HTML/000361.html
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/Forum15/HTML/000361.html
May 17, 2000, 4:01 pm
#11
Join Date: Jan 1999
Posts: 3,065
Gazza: But if you bought a consolidated ticket on BA it would be just as cheap?!
You have said nothing to imply that you think the service on KLM is as good as on BA - infact you imply that you will make do with their inferior service levels - personally I have never found any benefits in KLM RoyalWing, I have been RoyalWing PC for the last year, and was made CC earlier this month - I still won't fly with them unless I have to.
Nick
You have said nothing to imply that you think the service on KLM is as good as on BA - infact you imply that you will make do with their inferior service levels - personally I have never found any benefits in KLM RoyalWing, I have been RoyalWing PC for the last year, and was made CC earlier this month - I still won't fly with them unless I have to.
Nick
May 30, 2000, 1:22 pm
#12
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Join Date: May 1999
Posts: 46,817
Air France/KLM and Alitalia
The breakdown of alliance talks between Italian carrier Alitalia SpA (I.ALI) and KLM Royal Dutch Airlines (KLM) is final, Piero Gnudi, the chairman of state holding company IRI, said Tuesday.
Speaking to a Lower House Transport Commission, Gnudi said that Alitalia officials tried to patch up the situation "but these attempts did not obtain any results and therefore the break-up must be considered definitive."
http://dowjones.wsj.com/archive/gx.c...er=display-d2h
Speaking to a Lower House Transport Commission, Gnudi said that Alitalia officials tried to patch up the situation "but these attempts did not obtain any results and therefore the break-up must be considered definitive."
http://dowjones.wsj.com/archive/gx.c...er=display-d2h
Jun 10, 2000, 7:23 am
#13
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Join Date: May 1999
Posts: 46,817
Alitalia may ask KLM airline for more than 250 million euros (USD$238.2 million) in damages after the collapse of their alliance in April, according to an Italian newspaper. KLM denied it had received any official approaches over possible compensation.
Alitalia also plans to keep a 100 million euro payment KLM made to ease the transition of flights to Milan's new Malpensa airport, which was to have been an important hub for their traffic.
KLM cited problems surrounding the on-off transfer between Milan's Linate and Malpensa airports when it ditched Alitalia.
KLM is now in merger talks with BA, despite Italian government hopes that the KLM-Alitalia project could be saved.
The daily newspaper Il Sole said Alitalia was considering pursuing KLM for 500billion lire (258 million euros) in damages for what it regards as an "illegitimate" decision by KLM to drop the alliance.
An Alitalia spokesman declined to comment on the report specifically, but reiterated what the company had said in its recent 1999 annual report: "We reserve the right to ask for the restoration of damages suffered for the illegal breakdown of the alliance by KLM."
KLM has received no official request for damages from Alitalia over the collapse of their alliance, a spokesman for KLM said.
"We haven't received anything from Alitalia - we've had no letter, nothing official," spokesman Youssef Eddini told Reuters.
Alitalia also plans to keep a 100 million euro payment KLM made to ease the transition of flights to Milan's new Malpensa airport, which was to have been an important hub for their traffic.
KLM cited problems surrounding the on-off transfer between Milan's Linate and Malpensa airports when it ditched Alitalia.
KLM is now in merger talks with BA, despite Italian government hopes that the KLM-Alitalia project could be saved.
The daily newspaper Il Sole said Alitalia was considering pursuing KLM for 500billion lire (258 million euros) in damages for what it regards as an "illegitimate" decision by KLM to drop the alliance.
An Alitalia spokesman declined to comment on the report specifically, but reiterated what the company had said in its recent 1999 annual report: "We reserve the right to ask for the restoration of damages suffered for the illegal breakdown of the alliance by KLM."
KLM has received no official request for damages from Alitalia over the collapse of their alliance, a spokesman for KLM said.
"We haven't received anything from Alitalia - we've had no letter, nothing official," spokesman Youssef Eddini told Reuters.
Jun 15, 2000, 1:07 pm
#14
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Join Date: May 1999
Posts: 46,817
Air France/KLM and Alitalia
Alitalia is again considering an alliance with Air France following the failure of its alliance with KLM of the Netherlands, the Milan financial newspaper MF reported.
http://news.airwise.com/stories/2000/06/961071748.html
http://news.airwise.com/stories/2000/06/961071748.html
Aug 1, 2000, 6:14 am
#15
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Join Date: May 1999
Posts: 46,817
KLM will file a claim against Alitalia in response to the arbitration sought by its one time partner.
http://biz.yahoo.com/rf/000801/aat000699.html
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How things change!
http://biz.yahoo.com/rf/000801/aat000699.html
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How things change!