robyng

I think this is the right forum for this (because it cuts across several other forums). Please move it to a more appropriate place if there is one.

I would like to hear some straight discussion about the benefits of booking through premium travel agents like FHR and Virtuoso and the like - as opposed to doing things yourself. As well as the real facts. And I will give you my bias. I tend to book hotels myself - and I don't believe everything I read about premium travel agents. In addition - if I am going to spend a week in a hotel - I want guarantees before I arrive - not promises on an "as available" basis.

Note that for people who don't want to book themselves - it frequently takes more than a little time and effort to DIY - then I think a travel agent - premium or otherwise - is appropriate. But for people who are willing to spend time on line - what do you gain?

Best I can figure out to date are the following:

Direct on-line booking rates are frequently cheaper than those through an agent.

The agent upgrades that people talk about are usually upgrades when they have paid higher rates to start with. You can usually book significant amenities (like breakfast for 2 as opposed to a bottle of water and some cookies) for the same price on-line as you can with an agent.

Significant room upgrades are not available when hotels are at or near capacity. Neither are guaranteed early arrivals (like 8 am red eye arrivals).

IOW - if I want a room of a particular size and arrival at a particular time in a busy hotel - what I get from an agent is basically no different than what I can get booking things myself.

Am I missing something here? BTW - for purposes of this thread - it would be nice if the travel agents would identify themselves as such. Robyn

jcherney

I guess you've got your experiences, and I've got mine. In many situations, the cost of the stay is not only less with Virtuoso or FHR than you can book yourself, but the free breakfasts are alone worth $50-$70 per day. Throw in a free massage, and I'm a happy camper.

I'm hardly the lazy type when it comes to travel. I'll scour just about every site before I book something (unless it's an error fare!). But if I can save 10-15% on my room AND get the amenities, I'm booking thru an agent. If I don't have to pay more AND get the amenities, life is good also. This was the case at THEHotel in Vegas in September, again in November-about at 10 percent discount. September was the VMA awards in LV, and the place was just packed. I got upgraded to a huge suite at the Crillon in Paris-and it wasn't because of my good looks. The hotel was full due to the Rugby finals going in on Paris.

As for guarantees, there are no guarantees in life.... If you want an upgrade guaranteed, pay for it. Or spend enough time and money in one property that they can't not upgrade you. I've done the former, and fortunately don't have to travel that much to worry about the latter. I buy the room size I want to stay in, and if I get upgraded to something really special, then I feel great and not disappointed.

Let me pose a question to you- if the Virtuoso or FHR agent is doing all the work for you for no charge, and you get the amenities included, where is the problem in using those agents? Does it make you feel better that you did it yourself?

Doppy

The situation is different at each hotel and can also be between the different programs - FHR/Virtuoso (though they're often the same).

This means that sometimes you're going to get a better rate on your own, and other times you're going to get a better rate going through an agent. The difference can be significant, however, saving hundreds more a night by going through an agent is not uncommon. This is particularly the case at hotels where the agent has a fixed rate, but the hotel's best available rates fluctuate widely - if there's something big going on in town that day, the best available rates may be extremely high, while the fixed rate is the same. On the flip side, during slow times, the direct rate may be the same or better than the agent's rate. As a result, I usually check both.

Then there are the amenities. At many hotels it's an upgrade at the time of booking; at most it's at check-in. If the direct rate and the agent rates are the same or close, I'll go with the agent rate and have a shot at an upgrade, plus other benefits along the way.

Regardless of how you book, if you know what you want, you should just book that. Anything else is just icing on the cake. So don't book a standard room with an agent for $200 / night and complain that you didn't get upgraded to the $600 / night suite that you wanted. Book the $600 / night suite with the agent and hope you'll get upgraded to the $1,000 / night suite. If you book directly and the rates are similar, you've got no chance at an upgrade and didn't save any money - what's the benefit of that?

The other amenities vary by property. Early arrivals/late departures, breakfasts, spa/dining credits - they're all in the mix, but again, it depends on the property.

Finally, these benefits really only apply at high end places, so if you're staying in 3 stars, you're not going to get much out of a travel agent.

For some good examples that I've posted about here on FT before - IC Sydney: Virtuoso rate with club access was cheaper than the best available without club access. IC HKG same rate as for a regular room, but included a guaranteed upgrade to a junior harborview suite. Ritz-Carlton Philadelphia, rate was (IIRC) $50 cheaper than the best available and I got an upgrade to a large suite.

Kagehitokiri

there are plenty of great discounts/benefits and possible/confirmed upgrades. lots of info/examples/etc in the luxury hotels forum, and the amex forum, including in the stickies.

but its no different from anything else, you just compare the offering of whatever partner/etc to the true best available rate.

and like doppy was saying, the room you book / room you might be upgraded to does matter. most of the time, if youre booking the base room for example, its not necessarily unlikely for the next room type to be sold out. or at other properties perhaps the base suites sell out fast, so if your upgrade states an upgrade to one, you shouldnt be surprised if it doesnt happen.

as long as youre not paying any more overall (unless you have the potential for a very valuable upgrade) i dont see how there could be a problem.

also

1. there are confirmed upgrades offered by many programs
2. confirmed noon checkin is offered by some FHR properties

you are getting a confirmed upgrade and full breakfast through virtuoso for your upcoming le bristol paris stay, correct?

finally, i see these things as the SAME as status for airlines/hotels in one respect - OP UPs. (operational upgrades)

you WILL get an upgrade (like if they have to put someone in the presidential suite) before an average person off the street.

during summer 2006, i was (pre)upgraded from base room to butler floor at sheraton park tower in london, as spg gold, on an award stay. my understanding is that platinums rarely get this upgrade on paid stays. that suggests to me i was the only guest checking in that day with gold+ status. (and i get spg gold via amex plat, which also lets me book FHR)

that sort of situation could work out the same way, if you are the only virtuso/fhr/etc guest.

robyng

Kagehitokiri - A question.

I currently have 2 reservations at Le Bristol. One I booked myself. 800/euros night for a Prestige room with breakfast. One with a Virtuoso agent at 790/euros night. 790/euros night is the LHW rate which is basically a room a level down without breakfast. I have requested written confirmation from the agent from the hotel of the guaranteed upgrade and breakfast. I don't want to arrive in Paris at 7 am and start arguing in French about what I'm supposed to get.

I figured I owed this guy one because of a trip he booked that I had to cancel. But I don't want to arrive at the hotel all jet-logged out holding my [expletive deleted] either.

Is it unreasonable to expect written confirmation of the Virtuoso upgrade? IMO - the reservation I have from the agent - which simply reads API VIRTUOSO at 790 Euros/night - doesn't tell me anything about what I can expect when I arrive in Paris. Quite frankly - if I'm spending over $1000 US Dollars a night - I want to know what I'm getting before I get there. Robyn

DavidO

The Virtuoso amenities at Le Bristol are as follows:

• Guaranteed upgrade at time of booking - please note that rates are loaded in the GDS to reflect the upgrade at time of booking
• Complimentary full breakfast for two daily
• VIP welcome
• Fruit and mineral water on arrival
• Complimentary parking for duration of stay

790 EUR is the rate in the GDS for a Prestige Room (540 sq ft) which is equal to the Rack rate for a Deluxe room. As you noted, there is a Breakfast Inclusive rate of 800 EUR for a Prestige room.

The initials "API" refers to the rate code for Virtuoso, so the reservation has definitely been made correctly. You could ask your agent to send you an Itinerary that includes a listing of the Virtuoso amenities (and it never hurts to ask her/him to email the Sales Manager and request that they VIP you).

Kagehitokiri

so in this example, virtuoso only saves 10 euros per night.

i would agree i would want the room category im booked into indicated on the reservation.

i would only point out that reservations can always be "lost" etc whether they are made directly or not. if le bristol is a true luxury property, any mistakes should be resolved efficiently with the focus on the guest's satisfaction.

taipeipeter

I think Le Bristol staff is capable of arguing in English. ...But certainly it's reasonable to get in writing what you've paid for.

obscure2k

Le Bristol staff are capable of anything^

robyng

jcherney - Actually the 2008 Virtuoso book says that Le Bristol offers a "guaranteed" room upgrade (as opposed to space available). I am just not clear what the upgrade is from and to. No one seems to think it is out of line to get the details in writing - so I am in the process of doing this.

I agree with you 100% that unless something is guaranteed - and you want it - you have to pay for it. For example - my plane arrives at 6 am. To guarantee I can shower and go to sleep upon red-eye arrival - I will have to book the night before. If I were younger and had fewer problems with jet lag - I'd probably take a chance. But I am who I am - and I will pay for the extra night.

Regarding agents - as I've explained in another thread - this TA was my TA for a long time. I moved about a decade ago - and the only time I used him (or any other travel agent) after my move was to book a cruise. He spent a fair (but not huge) amount of time on that. We had to cancel the cruise. So I owe him one. I want to use him for this booking (9 nights) to thank him for the work he did on the cruise.

So it's not a question of how I feel about things. I actually enjoy planning our trips (they're for leisure - not business). And booking hotels - and even many restaurants - has become very easy as the internet has gotten more sophisticated. About the only thing I hate is the search for "saver" business/first reward tickets - although internet searching for them has definitely gotten easier. Probably doesn't make me unique here! FWIW - I assume that few - if any - travel agents - will do this for any but their very best clients for free or a nominal charge. Don't know why they should. It took me an entire day to get 2 for this trip on a reasonable routing (open seats on various flights are like those ducks in shooting galleries - they just keep popping up and disappearing - popping up and disappearing - on all different routes - and many different partner airlines).

Even if I didn't like doing the bookings myself - sometimes time is of the essence. I "nailed" my reward tickets at 7 pm and had to "pay" for them (with AMEX points) in 24 hours (because they were on a Continental partner airline - not Continental - no extension allowed). So I had to confirm at least one acceptable hotel before I "paid" for the tickets. I am staying in Paris during Fashion Week - so hotel availability was not a given. Working in very short time frames - or over the weekend - is sometimes hard to do with a TA.

Kagehitokiri - I agree with you about the operational upgrades - at least with airlines. My husband is Continental Silver Elite (lowest grade). When I get a free ticket - and have to buy one - I always give him the miles because he has a bum leg. He has been upgraded to First a couple of times in small first class cabins even though he has low elite status. With hotels - I don't know. When we take our one big deal trip each year - we frequently stay at FS and RC - and neither has a formal reward program.

Question to Doppy - What you say makes a lot of sense. But I feel kind of guilty about shopping around between the internet and a TA. Is there a diplomatic way of doing it? I wouldn't feel guilty calling a FHR agent - someone I don't really know - but I don't have a Platinum card. But with an agent with whom I have a personal relationship - I would feel kind of guilty. Maybe I need a new agent - one I haven't known for 25 years - one I can treat in a more business-like manner? One I can negotiate with like I negotiate with brokers when I'm doing financial things. What do you do Doppy?

Three final thoughts. First - don't mean to shine your shoes - but you guys (and gals) here are better than any travel agent I've ever met. For example - we stayed at the Granvia in Kyoto a couple of years ago. Not exactly a well known chain in the US. We had an expensive room (we didn't want to trip over one another). And someone here mentioned to me *during* our stay (I was on line) that we could buy some kind of Granvia card for about $50 that would save us about 10-15% on the room - which was hundreds of dollars in savings. Which we did. How many US travel agents would know that? The resources and depth of knowledge here are really phenomenal.

Second - while I'm Mrs. Reservations - my husband is Mr. Language. He studied Japanese for a year for our trip to Japan - ditto with German for our trip to Germany last year - and he has just started again with French (which he has studied before). So he will be able to argue with anyone in France if he has to - although I do hope it won't be necessary .

Finally - obscure2k - I'll let you know if the Le Bristol staff can do *anything*. Because I am going to ask the concierge how a rather unfashionable middle aged woman from Jacksonville FL can score a ticket to any fashion show in Paris during fashion week . Robyn

DavidO

Here's some feedback to that question from someone on the other end of the equation. If you're going to shop prices on the internet anyway, do your shopping first, find the best rate you can, then provide that information to your TA. Then, let your TA either find you something that offers better value ... or handle the booking for the rate you found. At the very least, they can contact the Sales Mgr. on your behalf to get you VIP'ed. Just my [somewhat biased!] two cents.

jcherney

Robin,

I don't know your TA, but I can highly recommend the guy who posted just before me- DavidO. His bookings have been flawless, and he always sends a copy of your itinerary with everything spelled out-including the upgrades or potential upgrades. He's a Virtuoso agent, but also books FHR (as I'm an Amex Plat holder) and LHW bookings. If there's an issue with a property, he's on the front line trying to resolve it.

No, I'm not getting any kickbacks from David- just good service!!

Doppy

Since it's easy enough for TA's to do a cut-and-paste operation, usually I'll already know what hotel(s) I'm interested in and send an e-mail to my TA asking what Virtuoso has and get a quick e-mail back with the details. Total time on the TA's part is like a minute.

If the Virtuoso rate isn't good, then I'll still have the TA book for me if it's a regular rate that's publicly available - they still get the commission and it costs me nothing. Sometimes helps with the way you're treated at the hotel anyway.

If there's some kind of Internet-only special rate that I have to book directly, I'll be honest with the TA about it. I think most of them (at least ones you want to work with) understand. If the difference is like $10, then I'd just go with the TA, but I've had times when it's been pretty substantial - 50% less on a multi-night stay. No reasonable TA is going to feel like they jerked around in that case if you didn't book with them.

One booking isn't going to make or break a travel agency, and the TA will know you'll have another trip coming up soon enough.

The above is in the case where I asked the TA for minimal work. That's usually my case because I don't get to them until I've already do the research on the Internet and FT. In cases where the TA has expertise I'm drawing on or I am using extra services (e.g. research stuff, contact the hotels, etc.), then I'll almost definitely book with the TA unless the price difference is large. But usually I wouldn't even get to that point because I don't call the TA up blind - I already know what I could get, so if the TA's numbers aren't in the right ballpark, I'll abort long before they've invested too much time.

robyng

I guess what I hear you all saying - from both a client and a TA point of view - is that no one minds the client shopping around - giving the TA an opportunity to give it his or her best shot - and then having the client make up his or her mind. Assuming of course that you don't use a lot of the TA's time - and expect all kinds of free advice even if you decide to book yourself. Kind of like you wouldn't ask a full service financial broker to analyze a lot of securities for you - and then go buy something he or she recommends on line to save the commission. Or - in my case - if I use a bricks and mortar store to review a lot of travel books to see which I like - I don't use the information I get at the store to go order what I want on Amazon. If that's what you're telling me - that sounds fair enough.

A few more questions. I assume that TAs make zilch on plane tickets these days - except perhaps for very expensive ones. And that they don't make anything on reward tickets. So a TA wouldn't mind if a client handled the plane tickets - and he or she booked the hotel(s). Am I correct?

What about car rentals? I only rent a car about once a year - and I generally use an Entertainment Book coupon - or the Florida Bar discount - or similar - whichever gives me the best deal. At a lot of places these days - the car rentals are cheap - it's the taxes that are a killer (my brother lives in the Phoenix area - and I think the taxes there are about 40% of the total cost of renting).

What about restaurant reservations (I assume they're only done as a client courtesy)? I use OpenTable a fair amount these days - and it's ok. Personal email to a big deal restaurant is better.

To give a "for example" - I will be taking a trip this summer. Nephew is getting married. He couldn't pick a place like Chicago (where he lives). The wedding's in Brighton Michigan (near Detroit). The best place there is a Homewood Suites (I'm a Hilton Honors person) - a bit more than $100/night (AARP rate). I love my nephew - but the idea of going 1000 miles and just seeing Brighton isn't too appealing. So I thought I'd combine the wedding with a trip to Chicago. JAX/Detroit/Chicago/JAX - something like that. Rent a car for our stay in Brighton and to drive between the 2 cities. Stay at the Peninsula in Chicago for maybe 4 days. On a trip like this - I assume that a TA would basically be interested in the Peninsula stay (most bang for fewest hours spent). He or she might handle the other details - but wouldn't shed any tears if I handled them myself. That would be my preference too. Is my thinking correct? Robyn

P.S. Totally OT - but I just found a neat thing. I like Gridskipper for design/architecture/scene/restaurant/etc. info. And you can now set up a Gridskipper gadget on your Google home page for a city you're interested in. I did it for Paris. Am still searching for Brighton .

robyng

What is a VIP welcome? During fashion week - I doubt I will be anything like a VIP in this hotel. Of course - I could always tell the staff that I am a senior petite plus-size model .

When we were in Berlin last year - the Red Carpet (real red carpet at the front of the hotel) was out at the RC for a lot of our stay. And there were dozens of policemen. Of course - none of this was for us - it was for people attending the G8 conference - including Condoleezza Rice (who was staying at the hotel). Robyn