Why can't I find this ba.com fare on ITA Matrix?
Sep 21, 2016, 7:19 am
#16
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Again, thanks all. Flattered this thread is drawing on the expertise that makes this forum rather amazing but, crikey, those fare codes really can be quite byzantine! Excellent explanations.
Sep 21, 2016, 7:36 am
#17
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Interesting that you can sell something that the BA call centres can't! Now that is Byzantine.
Sep 21, 2016, 8:45 am
#18
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Presumably this depends on route? On the random route that I was looking at earlier (LHR-LAX, I think), the base fare difference was £150 round-trip. However, you'd have to add the additional APD for WT+ (£73?) to that to get the actual increase in the total to pay.
Interesting that you can sell something that the BA call centres can't! Now that is Byzantine.
Interesting that you can sell something that the BA call centres can't! Now that is Byzantine.
The £73 sounds like you have hit on an a higher economy fare against a lower WTP rather than the above.
Sep 21, 2016, 9:01 am
#20
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Which is comforting, because that's exactly what I meant. You'd add £150 to the base fare but the TFC also go up by £73 because of the APD.
QLX4S4T1 can be used to price LHR-LAX-LHR on 15/22 November 2016. This is a base fare of £360.00 plus £73.00 APD plus £298.25 of other TFC, giving a total of £731.25.
QLX4S4T1/DIF4 has a base fare of £510.00 plus £146.00 APD plus £298.25 of other TFC, giving a total of £954.25.
QLX4S4T1 can be used to price LHR-LAX-LHR on 15/22 November 2016. This is a base fare of £360.00 plus £73.00 APD plus £298.25 of other TFC, giving a total of £731.25.
QLX4S4T1/DIF4 has a base fare of £510.00 plus £146.00 APD plus £298.25 of other TFC, giving a total of £954.25.
Sep 21, 2016, 9:15 am
#21
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It is an interesting thread. Lots of expertise here. All I can add is that some airlines have "web-only" fares that do not get published externally. Especially Asian airlines I've found. CI for instance sometimes has very cheap business fares on their website that you will never see on Matrix. So it can often pay to look at both Matrix and the airlines website directly.
Sep 24, 2016, 12:46 pm
#22
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I can find the dual inventory fares on ITA Matrix for some destinations, for example LHR-MCT-LHR out on 8 Feb back on 12 Feb with fare basis OLRC1UK. Now that is properly OLRC1UK/DIF4 as found with Expertflyer (and the fare conditions from the Matrix search describe it as a dual inventory fare) but it was found and priced by Matrix.
Sep 24, 2016, 12:57 pm
#23
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DIF - TP/Avios earning, other programme earning, rebooking during IRROPS?
The BA DIF fares are new to me, and searching FT didn't get me very far.
So does anyone know what the situation is regarding:
TP/Avios earning - as the seated class (T in my LHR-MCT-LHR example above) or the lower class (O) ?
How will other FF programmes see the booking - T or O ?
If rebooked, will one be treated as if booked in T, or booked in O, and will original inventory be required? In particular I am thinking of the AA K-UP and Y-UP fares that require the upgrade inventory to be available to be rebooked into the same class of travel, otherwise you're back to economy
( https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/amer...r-thd-15.html# )
Overall, is it treated like a T-class booking once booked, or an inferior cheap ticket?
So does anyone know what the situation is regarding:
TP/Avios earning - as the seated class (T in my LHR-MCT-LHR example above) or the lower class (O) ?
How will other FF programmes see the booking - T or O ?
If rebooked, will one be treated as if booked in T, or booked in O, and will original inventory be required? In particular I am thinking of the AA K-UP and Y-UP fares that require the upgrade inventory to be available to be rebooked into the same class of travel, otherwise you're back to economy
( https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/amer...r-thd-15.html# )
Overall, is it treated like a T-class booking once booked, or an inferior cheap ticket?
Sep 25, 2016, 3:39 am
#24
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I can find the dual inventory fares on ITA Matrix for some destinations, for example LHR-MCT-LHR out on 8 Feb back on 12 Feb with fare basis OLRC1UK. Now that is properly OLRC1UK/DIF4 as found with Expertflyer (and the fare conditions from the Matrix search describe it as a dual inventory fare) but it was found and priced by Matrix.
I suspect that we are seeing an evolving experiment in action.
Sep 25, 2016, 3:57 am
#25
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There are plenty of other commonly-used fares which are not always booked into the booking class of the first letter of the fare basis code.
For example, if you buy an ex-EU I class fare, the short-haul sector to London will be booked into J class even though you are in I class on the long-haul. In that situation, the short-haul flight earns as for J class, but the long-haul flight only earns at the lower I class rate.
Also, look at the TP runs which depend heavily on buying an I class fare but booking some sectors into A class for the A class earning.
If rebooked, will one be treated as if booked in T, or booked in O, and will original inventory be required? In particular I am thinking of the AA K-UP and Y-UP fares that require the upgrade inventory to be available to be rebooked into the same class of travel, otherwise you're back to economy
In the case of this DIF fare, the booking class provisions are very straightforward - it looks like you are booked into T if T is available, end of story (save for the short-haul exceptions, of course):-
Code:
>$LB1
001 LONMCT 25SEP16 BA GBP 281.00 OLRC1UK STAY-SU/12MBK-T
FARE CLS EXPLANATION BOOK CODES
-------- ---------------------- ----------
OLRC1UK FARE BY RULE T
BOOKING CODE EXCEPTIONS
VIA BA B REQUIRED WITHIN USA
VIA BA J/Y REQUIRED WITHIN UNITED KINGDOM
Code:
>$LB15
015 DFWFLL 25SEP16 AA GBP 379.48 NUAHUSP3 STAY---/-- BK-P N
FARE CLS EXPLANATION BOOK CODES
-------- ---------------------- ----------
NUAHUSP3 FIRST CLASS SELL-UP OW NON-REF FARES P/N
NUAHUSP3 APPLIES FOR ONE WAY FARES
NUAHUSP3 FOR ADULT
BOOKING CODE EXCEPTIONS
VIA AA N/P PERMITTED P WHEN N AVAILABLE
VIA AA N REQUIRED
Or alternatively, if you look at this (more traditional) K-UP fare, the use of K class when there is no P is even clearer:-
Code:
>$LB38
038 DFWFLL 25SEP16 AA GBP 1205.08 KA07PNUP STAY---/-- BK-P
FARE CLS EXPLANATION BOOK CODES
-------- ---------------------- ----------
KA07PNUP ONE WAY INSTANT PURCHASE FARES P
KA07PNUP ID APPLIES FOR ONE WAY FARES
KA07PNUP FOR ADULT
BOOKING CODE EXCEPTIONS
VIA AA K PERMITTED WHEN PRIME NOT OFFERED
VIA AA P REQUIRED
Sep 25, 2016, 6:55 am
#26
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Thanks for those examples, I had not previously studied the booking class information in detail - in future I will.
It still doesn't seem entirely clear from the info in the booking class details as to what happens in the case of rebooking. If, for example, a flight is cancelled close to departure (aircraft goes tech or similar) then most airlines will rebook most tickets to another flight in the same cabin in the lowest available booking class. For a close in departure on BA that might result in H availability used for an O booking, for example. So something like "N REQUIRED" is going to apply at booking time, but at IIROPS-time you can be put in any economy seat, N inventory is not required - they'll take one from Y inventory if needed.
So is the general principle that one will be rebooked in the lowest available booking class in the same cabin unless the booking class detail permits a class in a lower cabin, and unless the rebooking is in circumstances where original (ticket) inventory is required such as a cancellation with advance notice or weather-related travel waiver?
Even for the K-UP fare, "K PERMITTED WHEN PRIME NOT OFFERED" - "not offered" meaning never available on this flight (no first cabin) or meaning not available at this moment (P0, PC)? We know the answer for K-UP fares from experience: you go in economy. But how should we interpret the fare rules as written?
Perhaps there are some other conditions published elsewhere for these BA fares, or perhaps BA just has an internal policy they don't publish. Or perhaps they just haven't thought it through yet
It still doesn't seem entirely clear from the info in the booking class details as to what happens in the case of rebooking. If, for example, a flight is cancelled close to departure (aircraft goes tech or similar) then most airlines will rebook most tickets to another flight in the same cabin in the lowest available booking class. For a close in departure on BA that might result in H availability used for an O booking, for example. So something like "N REQUIRED" is going to apply at booking time, but at IIROPS-time you can be put in any economy seat, N inventory is not required - they'll take one from Y inventory if needed.
So is the general principle that one will be rebooked in the lowest available booking class in the same cabin unless the booking class detail permits a class in a lower cabin, and unless the rebooking is in circumstances where original (ticket) inventory is required such as a cancellation with advance notice or weather-related travel waiver?
Even for the K-UP fare, "K PERMITTED WHEN PRIME NOT OFFERED" - "not offered" meaning never available on this flight (no first cabin) or meaning not available at this moment (P0, PC)? We know the answer for K-UP fares from experience: you go in economy. But how should we interpret the fare rules as written?
Perhaps there are some other conditions published elsewhere for these BA fares, or perhaps BA just has an internal policy they don't publish. Or perhaps they just haven't thought it through yet
Sep 25, 2016, 7:41 am
#27
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Whatever the theory of what happens with those AA fares, there's nothing in the BA fare that suggests to me that it's anything other than a T class fare with a fare basis code that makes clear that it's calculated from the starting point of a different and lower O class fare. However, that's just personal supposition from what I've listed above, and from the narrative description in the fare rules that it's a WT+ fare.
In IRROPS, downgrades can happen anyway, particularly if you really need to get somewhere. Airports can do pretty much anything to get you away. So to some extent, I think that the discussion must be theoretical. If you're disrupted when you're on one of these AA fares, presumably you still have a choice between taking an economy seat on another flight to make sure you get away, or waiting until there's another first class seat?
In IRROPS, downgrades can happen anyway, particularly if you really need to get somewhere. Airports can do pretty much anything to get you away. So to some extent, I think that the discussion must be theoretical. If you're disrupted when you're on one of these AA fares, presumably you still have a choice between taking an economy seat on another flight to make sure you get away, or waiting until there's another first class seat?
Feb 17, 2017, 8:05 am
#28
Join Date: Jan 2015
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Hi all,
Apologies, have struggled on make sense of these Dual Inventory Fares!
I found a fare on ITA matrix
- outbound GOT-NYC-LAS (cabin: ET-WTP-Econ) (class: K-T-B)
- return LAS-LHR-DUB (CW-CE) (I-J)
When I called BA to book, they were quoting me £200 more because they couldn't see the outbound fare shown to me by ITA Matrix.
Matrix was showing LLX3R4C1, but I think the call centre said they could only show me a fare basis beginning with "T", which could only combine with an NYC-LAS leg in "Y" instead of "B".
Was ITA showing me one of these Dual Inventory Fares, which are only supposed to be bookable online, which is why the call centre couldn't see it?
Many thanks
Apologies, have struggled on make sense of these Dual Inventory Fares!
I found a fare on ITA matrix
- outbound GOT-NYC-LAS (cabin: ET-WTP-Econ) (class: K-T-B)
- return LAS-LHR-DUB (CW-CE) (I-J)
When I called BA to book, they were quoting me £200 more because they couldn't see the outbound fare shown to me by ITA Matrix.
Matrix was showing LLX3R4C1, but I think the call centre said they could only show me a fare basis beginning with "T", which could only combine with an NYC-LAS leg in "Y" instead of "B".
Was ITA showing me one of these Dual Inventory Fares, which are only supposed to be bookable online, which is why the call centre couldn't see it?
Many thanks
Feb 17, 2017, 10:54 am
#29
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When I called BA to book, they were quoting me £200 more because they couldn't see the outbound fare shown to me by ITA Matrix.
Matrix was showing LLX3R4C1, but I think the call centre said they could only show me a fare basis beginning with "T", which could only combine with an NYC-LAS leg in "Y" instead of "B".
Was ITA showing me one of these Dual Inventory Fares, which are only supposed to be bookable online, which is why the call centre couldn't see it?
Matrix was showing LLX3R4C1, but I think the call centre said they could only show me a fare basis beginning with "T", which could only combine with an NYC-LAS leg in "Y" instead of "B".
Was ITA showing me one of these Dual Inventory Fares, which are only supposed to be bookable online, which is why the call centre couldn't see it?
Feb 17, 2017, 12:38 pm
#30
Join Date: Jan 2015
Programs: BA GGL
Posts: 252
Should these DIFs be bookable via the call centre? The agent couldn't see this particular fare.
In the past when a similar thing has happened and I've provided the fare basis shown by ITA, the agent has eventually been able to do it, but suggested that they had to "force the system" which meant that it needed to go for "manual payment".
Many thanks