Last edit by: corporate-wage-slave
Link to the full original text of the regulations in PDF format
Downgrades: Mennens case - calculation formula is in this post
Brexit and Covid pointers: see post 8
Downgrades: Mennens case - calculation formula is in this post
Brexit and Covid pointers: see post 8
The 2023 BA compensation thread: Your guide to Regulation EC261 / UK261
#721
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Depending on the exact timings particularly of arrival, this may still be in scope for compensation. Being a TA ticket and AA 001 ticket isn't at issue since it's all about the flight operator, here BA. The get out clause is if it's extraordinary circumstances, but unless I'm much mistaken it's due to BA not having enough operational kit at the moment.
#722
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: From ORK, live LCY
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TripIt sent me an alert that a flight from last year might be worth chasing for EU 261. They encouraged me to use their partner AirHelp.
It was BA 295 LHR-ORD on 30 July 2022. The delay was about 5 hours. After the flight I emailed BA but they said it was a lighting strike on the inbound aircraft and mandatory inspections had to be carried out.
We exchanged a few emails, but I haven't take any further steps. Should I? Is "lightning strike on inbound" a common catch all category or does that really absolve them from paying out?
Could someone with a premium subscription to Flightradar24 or Flightaware help me find out more information about the inbound, please?
It was BA 295 LHR-ORD on 30 July 2022. The delay was about 5 hours. After the flight I emailed BA but they said it was a lighting strike on the inbound aircraft and mandatory inspections had to be carried out.
We exchanged a few emails, but I haven't take any further steps. Should I? Is "lightning strike on inbound" a common catch all category or does that really absolve them from paying out?
Could someone with a premium subscription to Flightradar24 or Flightaware help me find out more information about the inbound, please?
I would have more sympathy for such a delay at an outstation.
#723
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: NYC
Programs: Kettle Class
Posts: 848
Interesting travel day yesterday, was scheduled to fly INV-LHR-JFK and the INV-LHR flight got delayed 4 hours due to a hit with the baggage loading truck. That delay led to a missed connection and offer to continue my journey on VS the following morning after an overnight stay, which was not ideal. After some imploring with flight connections staff, they managed to put me on LHR-EWR, which had to return to the gate after departure due to yet another suspected contact with a ground services vehicle, leading to an additional delay of 1 hour. My final arrival time in EWR (not JFK as orig. scheduled) was just under 4 hours late (due to a long layover). I am guessing, based on earlier advice, that this would be a valid case for GBP260 the arrival at EWR notwithstanding, and even if BA tries to initially finagle itself out of paying by claiming such contact incidents are "extraordinary" and out of their control?
Would it be reasonable for me to ask BA to also cover the taxi fare from EWR (<US$90) given that I saved them the Duty of Care expenses associated with putting me up for the night at a Heathrow hotel, transit, meals and continuing travel on VS?
Would it be reasonable for me to ask BA to also cover the taxi fare from EWR (<US$90) given that I saved them the Duty of Care expenses associated with putting me up for the night at a Heathrow hotel, transit, meals and continuing travel on VS?
#724
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The taxi fare seems well within Right to Care and I see no problem with that one. It may be they try to cap it to around USD70 but hopefully not. Vehicle collisions are inherent and under BA's control, mostly, so grounds for EC261. If it was a rogue Loganair vehicle that crashed into the BA aircraft in INV there may be another argument.
For the delay, that's depends on timing. But in essence if the rebooking meant you were under 4 hours late versus the original schedule then it is indeed £260 if so, in terms of doors open.
For the delay, that's depends on timing. But in essence if the rebooking meant you were under 4 hours late versus the original schedule then it is indeed £260 if so, in terms of doors open.
#725
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: East Cheam
Programs: QF, BA, VA
Posts: 198
Today British Airways denied my EU261 claim for BA16 departing Sydney on the 12th December 2022. It actually departed 15 hours late, on the 13th Dec, due to the late inbound flight - BA15.
BA15 should have departed LHR at 21:35 on the 10 Dec but did not leave until the morning of the 11th December.
BA's reason for denial is "bad weather conditions". I didn't think the bad weather hit LHR until the 11th Dec, plus the crew of BA16 suggested mechanical issues for the inbound flight delay. Is there any way to track historical activity at LHR on the 10th December to find out if weather caused any issues? I have asked in a separate thread about the reason for delay and the suggestion has been mechanical issues.
I have rebutted querying "bad weather".
BA15 should have departed LHR at 21:35 on the 10 Dec but did not leave until the morning of the 11th December.
BA's reason for denial is "bad weather conditions". I didn't think the bad weather hit LHR until the 11th Dec, plus the crew of BA16 suggested mechanical issues for the inbound flight delay. Is there any way to track historical activity at LHR on the 10th December to find out if weather caused any issues? I have asked in a separate thread about the reason for delay and the suggestion has been mechanical issues.
I have rebutted querying "bad weather".
#726
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: UK. BAEC AAdvantage
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The taxi fare seems well within Right to Care and I see no problem with that one. It may be they try to cap it to around USD70 but hopefully not. Vehicle collisions are inherent and under BA's control, mostly, so grounds for EC261. If it was a rogue Loganair vehicle that crashed into the BA aircraft in INV there may be another argument.
For the delay, that's depends on timing. But in essence if the rebooking meant you were under 4 hours late versus the original schedule then it is indeed £260 if so, in terms of doors open.
For the delay, that's depends on timing. But in essence if the rebooking meant you were under 4 hours late versus the original schedule then it is indeed £260 if so, in terms of doors open.
Upon our return I put 2 claims in. 1 for EU261 (on the basis that their message didn't give a cause for cancellation and the BA Flight took off) and another for the taxi to LHR (it was a 9am flight on a Sunday) and also for the extra leg room seats we'd booked on the FRA-SIN leg at £85 each. I got a reply back on the first claim, denying payment due to adverse weather at FRA that day. (The plane did fly in the morning as I tracked it!). I chased recently for the 2nd claim under duty of care (taxi was £75) and the seat fees and I got a response saying they've already told me that they weren't obliged to pay. I think they have combined the 2 claims, but their boilerplate responses show to me they aren't reading my claim. I asked for details of their manager to escalate the claim but have had no response in over a week.
I'm gathering from what I've read re Right of Care, they should be paying that and definitely refund my seat booking fees - even if it was adverse weather. Am I correct or am I wasting my time?
#727
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What is the reasoning for claiming the seat costs?
#729
Ambassador, British Airways; FlyerTalk Posting Legend
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https://www.lufthansa.com/ge/en/seat-reservation
The fee for already paid advance seat reservations can be reimbursed in the following cases:
- if a flight itinerary is changed by Lufthansa, for example a change in the type of aircraft deployed, which results in no equivalent seat being available to you on the new flight.
- if a disruption to your flight results in you having to be rebooked onto another flight on which no equivalent seat is available.
#730
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: somewhere
Programs: BA Gold
Posts: 2,815
Depending on the exact timings particularly of arrival, this may still be in scope for compensation. Being a TA ticket and AA 001 ticket isn't at issue since it's all about the flight operator, here BA. The get out clause is if it's extraordinary circumstances, but unless I'm much mistaken it's due to BA not having enough operational kit at the moment.
#731
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Seat reservation will not be part of EC261. But if you feel you are heading to MCOL you could make one submission with all components (Right to Care, Seat fee, delay compensation) and see which bits LH is prepared to fight.
#732
Join Date: Jul 1999
Location: SYD, GOT
Programs: BA GGL; SK EBG; QF LTG; Hilton Diamond, A-Club Platinum, Marriott Platinum
Posts: 2,970
Can someone help me decipher this comment/response from CR. It related to travel on SYD-SIN-LHR-SIN-SYD where the final leg was cancelled by BA (11-15) and I was rebooked in J on SQ (SIN-SYD). BA have agreed that it is 261 and have paid out the delay, but looking at the downgrade compensation, after 4 months they write..."As per our investigation, please know that the alternative flights offered to you in lower cabin was accepted. Please contact our customer support team via chat or call to get applicable refund of the difference in fares as per flight disruption."
Yes I accepted the lower cabin (J) as that is all that was offered. It was either that or wait 24 hours.
So my questions are
- Who is the customer support team? And what do I tell tell them - i.e. where are the applicable notes that I should refer to, or can they access to the CR case number. In my experience CR has paid this out in the past - why am I jumping through more hoops?
- applicable refund for fare difference as per flight disruption, does this include the 75% disruption or is just saying they will pay the fare difference without downgrade compensation? i.e. that there is some wording in that I "accepted" the lower class that denies me compensation? Or am I over reading/suspicious?
- It was a GUF I-A so they may claim there is no fare difference. I have already won, one case where BA claimed the GUF had no value, but it s painful.
Cheers,
KF
Yes I accepted the lower cabin (J) as that is all that was offered. It was either that or wait 24 hours.
So my questions are
- Who is the customer support team? And what do I tell tell them - i.e. where are the applicable notes that I should refer to, or can they access to the CR case number. In my experience CR has paid this out in the past - why am I jumping through more hoops?
- applicable refund for fare difference as per flight disruption, does this include the 75% disruption or is just saying they will pay the fare difference without downgrade compensation? i.e. that there is some wording in that I "accepted" the lower class that denies me compensation? Or am I over reading/suspicious?
- It was a GUF I-A so they may claim there is no fare difference. I have already won, one case where BA claimed the GUF had no value, but it s painful.
Cheers,
KF
#733
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OK, so I am hoping you didn't ask for compensation for the downgrade, since that's the correct answer in a sense: there is no compensation for downgrades. Instead there is a reimbursement mechanism - either a straight difference or the Mennens formula as shown in the WIki. What is more it is the Refunds team, in the UK, that handles this, whereas I suspect this answer came from an offshore unit with a poor understanding of what they should be doing. Sometimes BA like to argue that Mennens doesn't apply due to passengers agreeing to downgrade, but they seem to have stopped doing that. I'll just repeat my usual advice that when downgraded it is best to ask that your PNR is amended to include the comment that the passenger reluctantly accepts the downgrade under protest. They probably won't do so, but that doesn't matter so much: because you have said that, it removes BA's ability to claim it was something you chose/ Unfortunately the Refunds team never talks directly to customers, but they will talk to the Contact Centres. So ring the Contact Centre and ask them to submit a refund using the Mennens formula.
#734
Join Date: Jul 1999
Location: SYD, GOT
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Posts: 2,970
Thanks - I asked CR for reimbursement according to the Mennens formula. So it took 4 months for them to let me know I spoke to wrong people. As the BA GGL priority email, told me to talk to CR, I will go back around the merry go round. And will call the Manchester team....
Funny you ask about comments in the PNR - In this case I could not, as I was shoved a SQ BP and told to go away, and SQ of course wanted no discussion (why should they). Incidentally though, on my next flight (SIN/SYD again) they knocked me down to J, while leaving my kids in F (told at the gate - same PNR!). In that case, I refused to board until they wrote exactly what I wanted in the PNR (the GA had to phone for permission!). Needless to say there was no issue in prompt follow-up compensation.
Thanks for your help, as always.
KF
Funny you ask about comments in the PNR - In this case I could not, as I was shoved a SQ BP and told to go away, and SQ of course wanted no discussion (why should they). Incidentally though, on my next flight (SIN/SYD again) they knocked me down to J, while leaving my kids in F (told at the gate - same PNR!). In that case, I refused to board until they wrote exactly what I wanted in the PNR (the GA had to phone for permission!). Needless to say there was no issue in prompt follow-up compensation.
Thanks for your help, as always.
KF
#735
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: London
Programs: BA, UA, AA
Posts: 20
What did the Flight Deck say in their pre-flight briefing?
Broadly speaking lightning strikes do create circumstances for extraordinary circumstances, however what BA does about it is under their control. The checks do take a few hours, 5 hours seems within that margin particularly if the aircraft manufacturer had to be contacted. What you can do is still push for CEDR, where someone else will have a look at the timings and reach a judgement about "all reasonable measures".
Broadly speaking lightning strikes do create circumstances for extraordinary circumstances, however what BA does about it is under their control. The checks do take a few hours, 5 hours seems within that margin particularly if the aircraft manufacturer had to be contacted. What you can do is still push for CEDR, where someone else will have a look at the timings and reach a judgement about "all reasonable measures".
The Captain never said lighting strike, but it is consistent with BA's response. If the plane had just arrived, then I can accept the extraordinary circumstances argument.
Is anyone able to find out when the plane arrived? Although I'm not certain, I seem to remember that it came from SFO the day before. I would feel very confident going to CEDR if I knew that the plane sat on the ground overnight and BA hadn't fixed it (or swapped aircraft) when they had the opportunity.
BA 295 LHR-ORD 2022-07-30