I don't think not collecting them would make much sense given the frequency of my travel. I do not want to sue them, just keeping my options open, should my selling my miles ever become an issue. It's been done before, I feel strongly about this, and about doing as I wish with my miles. this is also called monopoly, they allow companies like points.com to do this, why not me? This is a free country, how do they get away with it. So yes they deserve to get sue for forcing people to do what the airline decide with these miles

 

You may wish to look up what "monopoly" actually means. This has nothing to do with a monopoly (and is not even related), and everything to do with the fact that miles are not your property and are entirely under the control of the airlines.

When you buy a ticket, you are not paying for your miles... you are paying for travel. The Contract of Carriage specifies nothing about the loyalty program. The loyalty program is separate and the miles are "free" (in the sense that you pay nothing extra for them - you could not collect them and still pay exactly the same amount for your ticket). The airline has every right to restrict their use.

They let Points.com do it because they have a specific agreement with Points.com, and presumably Points.com also pays the airline for this privilege. When you sell your miles, you are not paying the airline, nor is the buyer of your miles.

It's a "free" country governed by laws, both criminal and civil. Selling your miles is a breach of the terms and conditions to which you agreed when you registered for the mileage program. While you have every right to sell your miles, the airline has every right to confiscate those miles, close your account, and refuse to honor any ticket issued via those miles. The "it's a free country" knife cuts both ways, you know.

 

Cepheid I like your reply, especially this "While you have every right to sell your miles". Listen I'm helping people who need it and make money in the process. I think most of the people here have good jobs and income, let's face it we don't need the money, or else we'd all be on craigslist or flyhub selling our miles. Let me tell you why I started selling my miles and why I will not stop.

A few years ago I was on a business trip abroad and looking for a rare piece of african art for a client. I spent hours on ebay and could not find a thing. Then someone suggested I try craigslist, which I had never heard of. So I did. Except it was my first time using it so it took me a while to figure out how to find what I was looking for. And there while looking for art, I came across an ad from a guy begging to buy a ticket to go to his father's funeral. He only had 100 bucks. His story was rather unique and quite inspiring. Like most frequent flyer I thought, I can't sell my miles, but I can get this kid a ticket. Since I was flying back home the next day, I told him to meet me at the airport so I could get him a ticket to go see his father. When I got to the airport this teenager was waiting for me at the airport. When I saw this kid, and knowing his story, or at least what he had emailed me, I nearly broke down. He insisted on giving me the 100 bucks but I declined, instead I took him to the airline counter to get that ticket issued. And much to my dismay, these people could not get him a seat, I ended up flying him first class because after an hour spent there asking for many dates, options, etc... the airline could not find a seat or did not want to (that's just the game they play).

Long story short I went home furious, disgusting at what these people had done. There I was, a first class FF who had never once used the million miles I had accumulated over the years, and the one time I needed a ticket for something as important as this, a kid going to see his dying father, the airline could not get me a ticket.

months later, I got a post card from this kid thanking me, with a $300 money order. He wanted to thank me because had I not flown him there, he would have never seen his dying father before he passed away.

The rest is history.... I guess the point I'm making is, whatever money I make from selling my miles is great, but helping people who need it makes it even better. Sure I could use charity and I do sometimes, but at least with craigslist or flyhub I know they are going to individuals and not non profit administrative personnel. Anyway, just thought I'd share this.

 

You did a good thing by going well out of your way to get that kid a ticket; the fact that you refused from him shows that your intentions were good. I applaud that. Let me reiterate that there's absolutely nothing wrong (and, in fact, lots of good!) in giving away your miles to those who need it. Not only that, the T&Cs of most (if not all) mileage programs explicitly allow you to gift your awards to other people... they prohibit sale or barter, not gifting.

There's nothing illegal about selling your miles/awards, but as I said, the airline does have every right to close your account, confiscate your miles, and refuse to honor the awards you sold - potentially leaving your buyer(s) stranded or forced to pay a walk-up fare. In fact, this could potentially open you up to liability - someone who got stranded by the airline might decide to sue you because they had to pay a walk-up fare or were denied boarding - the airline isn't "responsible" because they're merely enforcing their T&Cs, while you accepted money and therefore have a responsibility to perform. Whether or not they'd win is a separate issue, but they could definitely cause you a lot of aggravation.

On the other hand, if it's not about the money (as you said), then you could very easily gift your awards to people and the airline wouldn't even blink. Not only do you get the pleasant buzz of altruism, your giftee has a much lower chance of getting stranded by the airline, and you absolve yourself of pretty much any liability.

If it's not about the money, and if it truly is about helping people, then gifting would be a much better option than selling.

There are other ways to do charity besides donating your miles through the program. You could talk to the charity and arrange to "purchase" the award ticket directly for the person in need. I'm confident there's a charity near you who would love for you to gift an award ticket to a charity recipient rather than an administrator. You could also do something similar to what you did for that kid: post an ad on Craigslist for people in need to contact you, and make your decision based on their stories. That way you can be truly confident that your miles are going to someone you selected, if you don't trust the charity option outlined above.

So look, nobody is telling you that selling your miles is "wrong," but it is against the airline's T&Cs and they are within their rights to zero out your account and potentially strand whomever bought the award from you. If your motivation truly is helping people in need, as you wonderfully did for that kid, then gifting your awards (per above) is a much safer, and IMHO also nobler, option.

(BTW, if it were me, I'd probably have returned the $300 money order... but that's a judgment call.)

Edit: Post #5000! Woohoo!

 

In this example, you did not sell your miles. You gifted them, and at some point later, after the trip, the young man gifted you cash. There was no agreement for him to pay you later. There was merely a "debt" of gratitude that he chose to fullfill. This is perfectly within the rules of FF programs.

Once the flight is completed they can not then "confiscate" the ticket since it is of no value.

What usually happens is when you gift/barter/sell a ticket with miles for Cosideration ($$) before the person flies and then at the airport they tell the agent "I bought this ticket". Then it becomes against the Programs rules and the agent follows the rest of the rules in confiscating the ticket, finding which account it came from and closing that account.

I have "sold" miles to my parents/friends etc in the past (of course less than the actual ticket would have cost, more like your deal, father is sick, flight costs $700, I have $200 would you "give" me a mileage ticket for that) with STRICT instructions not to mention anything to anyone on the plane or at the airports about "buying" a ticket. We just consider it like Christmas, I give you a gift, you give me a gift, it is not "buying" the gift, it is just exchanging gifts which is allowed under Airline rules.

As stated before none of this is Illegal as in a court of law, it is just violating the terms you agreeded to when you signed up to earn the miles.

 

Although I wish that more flyers would win, I think that the airlines have a right to do what they do.

 

[QUOTE=flyerd;10932760]Cepheid I like your reply, especially this "While you have every right to sell your miles". Listen I'm helping people who need it and make money in the process. I think most of the people here have good jobs and income, let's face it we don't need the money, or else we'd all be on craigslist or flyhub selling our miles. Let me tell you why I started selling my miles and why I will not stop./QUOTE]

Would you agree that if people sell miles they received for business travel, then they should pay income tax on the sale. Additionally, the person buying them should pay tax, just as the airline (at least AA) collects tax when it sells miles.

Seriously. selling miles is a slap in the face to people who follows the rules, as it devalues their miles by reducing the availability of awards. What do you think would happen if airlines were forced to permit such sales. Can you even guess? I can. It would make it more difficult for people to get seats.
Addi. Your story about giving someone in need a free ticket, and getting is nice, but........ this is not the issue. You are always free to give away miles to those in need.

The FF program agreements clearly state the limitations on what you can do with miles. It's not like people are forced to particpate in the programs.
The answer is simple. If you can't agree to the agreement, then you are free to not participate. There is no financial penalty for not participating. After all, the fares are the same whether you get miles or not.

 

I agree completely, and the distinction between "illegal" and "against program rules" is an important one that many people fail to recognize.

Also agree, including as to the disclaimer. Unconscionable means something like "shockingly unfair," although the actual definition is complicated and varies by jurisdiction. But it has to be fairly ridiculous: like, if the frequent flyer program's TOS said "you agree that if you ever attempt to sell or barter your miles, you agree to compensate the airline by working for us for free, as a slave, for the rest of your life," that would be unconscionable. But that's not the case here, and the current TOS which forbids you from selling miles, and is enforced just by confiscation of the miles, award, and/or account, looks like it probably does not rise to the level of "unconscionable." (Although, only the judges can say for sure.)

I'm not sure about this one. I don't know if there would really be far, far fewer frivolous suits filed...currently the U.S. legal system already requires the loser to pay the legal fees and court costs if the suit (or defense) if the judge determines that the case was frivolous. (And the atty can be sanctioned with Rule 11 too.) But judges just rarely find cases to be actually frivolous (or the really frivolous cases get settled before the judge has a chance to rule on them).

If the rule was that the loser of any suit had to pay the other party's legal fees and costs, then yes, there would be some fewer lawsuits filed. But there would be fewer meritorious lawsuits filed too, because even a party that has a good argument will be afraid of losing, particularly if the other party is a corporation that will run up tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars in legal bills. In fact, corporate defendants could deliberately run up big bills just to intimidate future plaintiffs and prevent them from suing.

And the current plaintiffs' attorney contingent fee system probably would not work anymore, since someone would have to pay the defendant's legal bill if the plaintiff loses, and currently attorneys can only offer contingency fee agreements to plaintiffs because the attorney knows that if he loses the case, he will only suffer the loss of his time and personal expenses wasted on the case.

Although the current system may encourage frivolous claims to be filed, the fee-shifting system would equally encourage frivolous defenses to be raised against valid claims.

Unfortunately, the fact that you feel strongly about violating a contract that you agreed to doesn't make the contract any less valid. This also has nothing to do with a monopoly. You can start a business like points.com and sell miles if you specifically arrange with the airline to buy miles for resale, as points.com does. But under the frequent flier programs' rules, you can't sell the miles you earn in your own personal frequent flier account by flying. The owners of points.com can't sell the miles they personally earn in their own accounts for flying either. Even in a free country, there are laws, and there are enforceable contracts. For example, even though it's a free country, you can't just walk onto someone else's plane without a ticket and fly anywhere, just because you have a right to freedom.

 

The whole fee and salary situation of the legal system got blown out af any reality here !

In germany, there is a fee chart of what layers are allowed to charge. Something like this doesnt seem to exist here. They can basically charge anything in any amount they like.

It created a circus in this country which other nations just laugh about, but the people here take it dead serious. There should be a big cleanout... giving all the personal (minor/non) injury, nonsense case attorneys plus the lawmakers a kick. Maybe someone will find the way back into reasonable standards.

Even the idea of such a lawsuit as discussed here is insane. One really gets the impression that the economy of the U.S. is just based on 3 things: 1) Stupidity 2) Lazyness and 3) the respective industry to cater to one of these two !

 

Actually, plaintiffs' attorneys (including most personal injury attorneys that you see on TV) in the US usually charge a contingency fee, meaning that they don't charge their client any money up front, but take a % of the award (if they win) at the end. And if they lose, the client doesn't have to pay anything (the lawyer takes the hit insteand). There are limits on these contigency fees; usually, the maximums are 30-40% (in some rare cases 50%), but it depends on how complicated the case is and the risks the attorney is taking. If the attorney attempts to charge an excessive fee, the contract will not be enforced by the courts, and the attorney can also be disciplined (in extreme cases, disbarred).

In most foreign countries, on the other hand, contingency fees are completely illegal, and a plaintiff can't hire an attorney unless he/she has the money to pay an hourly fee up front, regardless of whether they win or lose. If you consider the fact that plaintiffs are often people who have already suffered losses (physical injuries, thefts, frauds, etc.), it means that quite a few of these people won't be able to hire lawyers at all if they have to pay up front.

 

Very interesting discussion above about US legal system, but, perhaps more suited to OMNI forum. @:-)

How, about that Delta lawsuit ... ?

 

Exactly, but I can say that it would be impossible here to charge a 50% contigency fee.

I personally see this fact (no money upfront, no risk for the plaintiff) as the main source of the problem that people come up with minor cases. And for important things I have a legal protection insurance for 6.33 EUR monthly that covers all my fees and I dont have to pay my laywer up front. Though the insurance wants to have a confirmation from my attorney that the case is reasonable otherwise they dont pay.

I do not complain about the patient who got the wrong leg amputated in a surgery or the like. He certainly deserves high compensation and those things will never be solved without a lawsuit.

If someone falls down in a shopping center or around an ice rink because there is water on the floor (might it be due to weather or whatever) and they sue the place, it might lead to a substantial amount of money if the plaintiff makes a show. Most judges in "foreign countries" would see that as "risk of life" or so to say "open your eyes, you dont live in wonderland where you float around safely on a cloud".

 

"It would make it more difficult for people to get seats.
Addi. Your story about giving someone in need a free ticket, and getting is nice, but........ this is not the issue. You are always free to give away miles to those in need. "

this was written in post # 22, and i do not sell miles, but i do not see the harm in selling them, and what is the difference in redeeming awards, if the miles are given away or sold? how would it make it more difficult for people to get seats if miles are sold, as opposed to if they are given away?i just do not understand this logic. why don't we just put the cards on the table and say, that the airlines have just put too many frequent flyer miles into the market. THE AVAILABILITY OF SEATS, DOES NOT MATTER,ONE BIT, WHETHER THE FREE TICKETS MILES WERE SOLD OR GIVEN AWAY, THE SEATS ARE STILL GOING TO BE USED, so i just do not understand, how if they are given away, as opposed to being sold, that this impacts the ability to get frequent flyer seats...
thanks for everyone's time.

 

People have a lot more incentive to sell than to give away. If the airlines allowed miles to be sold, a lot of people would try to sell their miles, and they would do it for cheaper than a corresponding revenue ticket. Therefore, people who might not have otherwise purchased a revenue ticket will very likely purchase a mileage ticket. But much more importantly, since award inventory is limited, all these miles sold would end up taking all the award inventory, leaving none for the frequent flyers who want to redeem some for themselves.

We all know that charity is much rarer than greed. If everyone started giving away their miles, of course the end result would be the same... but there's no chance of that happening. People who can't sell their miles are much more likely to hold on to them in the hopes that they'll be able to redeem them for themselves, friends, or family.

The logic is simple. Look up the concept of "breakage" if you don't understand.

 

Well... the experience I made is that people who actively look to buy mileage tickets are not willing or able to buy a respective Business / First ticket anyways.

So for the airline there would be no harm in my eyes.

The issue is that all award seats will be gone with this practise but I guess we just have to play the game and chase our seats.

Cheers,
S